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Old 10-07-2016, 10:44   #1
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Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Hi, New to the forum, my wife and I recently (Jan) purchased a Hudson force 50 on the hard,
She had gone down for a day so we had very little initially invested,
Since then I've stripped the wire and electrical, fixed the soft spot in the deck, (glass deck) got the engine running great, (have yet to install the new gauges)
Repaired a couple holes in the hull (why she went down)....(rock)....(blew off her mooring ball).
So in between work I run back and forth and slave away,

My question is, islander came with her original spruce masts and 6' bowsprit
In considering the junk rig I wAs wondering if I could split the hollow mast open and fill with wood/epoxy so as to make a solid mast, also shorten them in the process, I would consider wrapping with glass if I needed the extra strength

In a perfect world if have just the main mast and small jib, I'd be fine with moving it back of the boat also, the mizzen is deck stepped and I'd rather not keep it there,
Any and all comments are welcome, I'm looking for a very simple design, also hoping I can get rid of the bowsprit so as to save $ monthly or shorten?
Thanks
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Old 10-07-2016, 11:42   #2
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

I suggest that you join the Junk Rig Association and then look for advice and plans on that website. I have never heard of an epoxy filled mast, but people certainly do use various wood masts and aluminum poles on junk rigged boat. Mine, a 30 footer, is a steel hull with an unstayed aluminum mast for example. The location of the mast is often an issue in a conversion; typically it needs to be further forward than on a Bermuda-rigged sloop. Also, on a 50 footer you may want to go with a ketch or schooner rig to keep the sails within a reasonable size range. I think most junks over 30 feet are ketch or schooner rigs. I had a 42 foot Colvin Gazelle in the past, which was a junk schooner with a western style roller furling jib - a very easy rig to handle even when single handing.
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Old 10-07-2016, 14:34   #3
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Can you slit open your mast and make it solid? Probably not, the heat from the epoxy curing would likely catch the wood on fire. Worse there is absolutely no reason in the world to do this.

Converting from a sloop to a junk rig is certainly possible, but it's a bad idea. Particularly if the sloop rig is in good shape. But if you insist... Then you need to run the numbers and calculate the new sectional area of the mast you need to make it free standing, en find a mast that size. You cannot reasonably convert a smaller mast into a bigger one.

Cutting off the bowsprit is again possible but not recommended. You would need to rerun the calculations on the mast to figure out the new forstay loads and redesign the rigging to suit. You would also be removing a huge amount of sail area from the boat, and require all new sails.
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:12   #4
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

You'd be much better served to hire a couple guys to help refinish/refit existing spars. It would be cheaper, less time consuming, the boat will sail better, shorten your time on the hard, etc. etc. etc. Really.
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:43   #5
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

In reference to making my mast solid, I was considering splitting it in half and slowly laying layers of wood until each half was filled, then the two halves epoxied together, I don't see much of a difference in the end between this and a laminated solid mast, just have never heard of such a thing.
I'm a carpenter and have quite a lot of experience with epoxy/poly/vinylester and glass


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Old 10-07-2016, 16:45   #6
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Also my running rigging/spreaders/chainplates/ is shot
I've always been a big fan of the look of junk rigs and there simplicity
Thus my attraction,
It fits with ing my budget much better also,


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Old 10-07-2016, 17:10   #7
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Howdy and Welcome aboard CF!

FYI: there is an active "Junk Rig Association." Google and read about it if you have not done so already.

I assume that your Force 50 is the one in SOCAL that was advertised for a long time. I recall that boat was a topic on this forum before. Here is a Google Custom Search of CF archives for "Force 50" so you can see:

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...050&gsc.page=1


There is a social group of members who have similar boats: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nd+trader.html

Good luck on your refit (or rebuild) I suggest you start a "refit" oriented thread about your boat, post lots of before and after photos, and photos of progress on projects too. That should stimulate more unsolicited advice and opinions, attract more junk owners or more Force 50 owners, and provide a sounding board if you seek opinions too.
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Old 10-07-2016, 21:32   #8
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Force 50 View Post
In reference to making my mast solid, I was considering splitting it in half and slowly laying layers of wood until each half was filled, then the two halves epoxied together, I don't see much of a difference in the end between this and a laminated solid mast, just have never heard of such a thing.
I'm a carpenter and have quite a lot of experience with epoxy/poly/vinylester and glass


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Ok, let's back up just a bit... Why in gods name would you want a solid wood mast? It adds very little strength, adds a massive amount of weight right where you don't want it, and would substantially and negatively effect the stability. Yes it can be done, but there are a lot of reasons why people go thru the time and expense of building a hollow wooden mast in the first place.
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Old 10-07-2016, 21:35   #9
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Force 50 View Post
Also my running rigging/spreaders/chainplates/ is shot
I've always been a big fan of the look of junk rigs and there simplicity
Thus my attraction,
It fits with ing my budget much better also,


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Junk rigs are not simple, nor do they perform very well. I can't help with your budget, but to convert a sloop mast to a junk mast is financial folly. You need to replace the mast with a larger section not just try to beef it up.

If you want to reuse what you have it would be better to add the same amount of material to the outside. It's still silly, but it would work far better.

But that still leaves the rest of the hull that needs to be converted. It's more work than I think you envision.
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Old 10-07-2016, 21:58   #10
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

No comment on whether or not to convert this boat to junk sloop. However, I will recommend using schedule 40 aluminum pipe for a mast, if you do. Wall thickness is more than heavy enough to weld all hardware. Weight is less than solid wood with greater strength.

P.S., I converted from schooner (with bowsprit) to a no-bowsprit gaff sloop rig. Happy I did.

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Old 11-07-2016, 05:23   #11
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Greg, converting to junk rig = equals unstayed mast
Unstayed mast = stronger mast need. Thus making it solid,
Junk rig doesn't need as tall of mast and by the time you remove the standing rigging and extra length the weight is a wash
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:01   #12
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

The experts on junk rigs are to be found at the Junk Rig Association. Many members of JRA have converted boats to junk rig. There are extensive files on rig conversion, and junk rig design and construction, including mast design. Junks need not be poor at going to weather, and what you said about lower height and no stays is true. And you won't need the bowsprit if you go with a rig sans jib, unless you want something very short just to put the anchor rollers on.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:23   #13
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Force 50 View Post
Greg, converting to junk rig = equals unstayed mast
Unstayed mast = stronger mast need. Thus making it solid,
Junk rig doesn't need as tall of mast and by the time you remove the standing rigging and extra length the weight is a wash
An unstayed mast doesn't need to be stronger, it needs to be stiffer. Making a mast solid adds very little to the stiffness since the most important thing to determin stiffness is the diameter of the section. In other words you can use X amount of material to make a 1" solid rod or the same amount to make a 6" tube, the 6" tube will be orders of magnitude stiffer than the 1".
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:23   #14
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Thanks Paul I'll jump over there and talk
To the pros !!
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:41   #15
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Re: Questions for the junk rig enthusiast

Remember that if you change the rigging plan from stayed to unstayed, you will be transferring all of the loads once taken by the shrouds, stays and chainplates to the mast partners and mast step. If they're are not designed for these loads, you could literally break your boat with a massive structural failure. You are planning on changing the entire load structure of a tension/compression/torsion system carefully designed by a naval architect and proven to work well as designed. I would not do it without an experienced naval architect's advice. In fact, I wouldn't do it at all.
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