Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-07-2007, 12:05   #61
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,053
"Shoot, an enterprising person could make everything from bow rails to fishing rod holders... custom... for anyone anchored up near them. Sounds like a promising business to me."
There's a HUGE difference between doing some simple structural repairs, and opening up a metalworking shop complete with tube benders, brakes, all the big machinery AND the wide range of welding equipment.

Me, I still hear "welding" and it means "welding torch" to my ears. What you guys call welding, I still call ARC-WELDING because you are using an electric arc and not a conventional acetylene flame.

The old US Navy welding manuals are probably still available, I think it was TAB books used to reprint them along with all the other odd DIY books, or the USGPO may still sell them direct. They used to be a real fast way to learn "proper" welding. Get a rig, get some scrap, and by the end of the day you'll be able to do practical work. Also, most vocational school programs and the like teach welding courses, many "adult evening" schedules included.
I'm just an amateur at it, but I find it fascinating to turn metal into a molten pool and then see it set up solid again.
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 13:46   #62
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
They are expensive little things, but if you want to carry a welder onboard, then a small inverter Arc/TIG welder is the way to go. Only a few Kg's(Pounds) and very powerful. They also run on the smell of electricity so don't take a lot of current drain from batteries or Genset. Expect to pay some hard earned money, but very very well worth it. Being Arc, you can do all the normal heavey welding. But the addition of TIG, means you can do high quaility welding of very light steel, SST and Aluminium. The only negative with TIG is having to carry a bottle of inert Gas for those metals. But then you maybe able to hire just the bottle for the specific metal you are working with for just that job and then return the bottle.
__________________

__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 19:39   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
You can't catergorize steel boats as if they are all the same. The level of maintenance that a steel boat will require is entirely a function of how well it was originally painted, and painted with what.

I nearly purchased an epoxy painted steel boat that was 20 years old, 3" of foam on the interior. No rust issued to speak of. That boat didn't have enough SA/D so I bought another steel boat. It's been a joy.

Many people have very little experience with steel boats, so they pass on second hand information. And the steel boats with the bad paint jobs give the rest a bad name.

It's all in the paint and application. Epoxy paint is a must, and it must be done professionally. Thereafter, you will be good to go.

The nice thing about steel, beside being strong, dry, etc., etc., is that they sell at huge discounts in the American markets because people fear them--with reason. The wrong steel boat is a nightmare. Buy the right one, however, and you can get a real steal (pun?).

The biggest problem with smaller steel boats, IMO, is not the rust (assuming it's been painted correctly). It's inadequate SA/D. That's a much tougher nut to crack. That problem is almost insurmountable.

BTY, my wife used to get seasick all the time in our prior 33' Wauquiez. In our custom 36' steel, she doesn't. Great motion is way underrated in our experience.
__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 19:48   #64
Registered User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 145
Images: 8
Sail area vs displacement

OK, Ill bite, how do you know what is appropriate for sail area vs displacement, and why dont they have enough in the design? (Brians dumb question for the day).

Thanks
__________________
brian and clare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 19:51   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Boat: 44 footer
Posts: 923
Here is the US Army Welding Manual: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...g%20Manual.pdf

Good points. For me, I've got all the grinders, welder, and torches and what not... going cruising means liquidating all that. Sure would love to have an excuse to take it all with me.

(One of my hobbies is restoring cars...)
__________________
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 21:07   #66
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,651
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian and clare
..how do you know what is appropriate for sail area vs displacement...
Yo Brian,

great question! And a lifetime's work to master. One knows from experience, one's own or that of a professional yacht designer, based on what has worked (or not) on previous designs of a similar nature.

The specs, including sail-area-to-displacement (SA/D), for most boats are easy enough to research. What is more challenging is making sound judgements of what they mean when comparing yachts of seemingly similar type.

Obviously SA/D is much greater for a lightweight, honeycomb-cored racer than a steel, displacement world-cruiser.

best, andy
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2007, 22:09   #67
Registered User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 145
Images: 8
so is there any steel boat designer known for being more conservative than others? Is it possible to just build the boat with a taller rig?
__________________
brian and clare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 02:38   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 976
Images: 6
OK heres the inside of the boat that l am building .That grey is epoxy ......Ship loads of it.....As l was saying earlier the inside should be treated the same as the outside...Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3305.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	67.8 KB
ID:	1541
__________________
cooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 02:40   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 976
Images: 6
And heres the outside...Click image for larger version

Name:	BoatPaintedWhite.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	50.4 KB
ID:	1542
__________________
cooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:15   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian and clare
OK, Ill bite, how do you know what is appropriate for sail area vs displacement, and why dont they have enough in the design? (Brians dumb question for the day).

Thanks
Not sail area versus displacement. The sail-area-displacement ratio. SA/D is a nondimensional number that helps you compare various boats' sail power even if they are different sizes.

The formula is mentioned here: SA/D Calculator

Steel boats have such heavy structures that it's difficult to have much displacement leftover for ballast, so they tend to have low ballast-to-displacement ratios (B/D). Thus, they don't have high stabilty and the designers tend to counter by putting low sail area on the boat. Big displacement with low sail area kills the SA/D ratio. Ergo, the boats don't move in light air.

A good example is at Dudley Dix's website. Boat plans, yacht designs & boat kits from Dudley Dix Yacht Design & Boat Plans He has plans for wood, alloy, steel, and glass boats. Compare similar sizes and designs, and you will see that his steel boats have the lowest SA/D ratios among his own designs. 'Tis the nature of the beast.

You can get around this on a steel boat, but you will lose shallow draft and you will end up reefing early when the wind picks up. All boats are compromises. The issue is which compromise do you want.
__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:27   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian and clare
so is there any steel boat designer known for being more conservative than others? Is it possible to just build the boat with a taller rig?
The guy who built our boat did exactly that. Taller mast. He also added a bowsprit and a longer boom. Move the mast one foot forward. Completely redid the interior. And changed from full keel to long fin keel with 1.5 feet more draft, same ballast. Huge skeg with prop in the skeg. Checked with Ted Brewer before design changes were made.

It worked. We have to reef early, but the boat moves in light winds. Just what I wanted.

The builder made it for himself (he owns a steel fabrication company), but he is now building a 44' centercockpit Dudley Dix.

The problem is that stock plans for small steel boats (under 45') typically have low SA/Ds, as mentioned above. My boat originally as designed by Brewer had SA/D ratio of 15.5 IRRC. As built is 17+.
__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:33   #72
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,053
I thought you could actually get around that with size, and that somewhere around forty feet (which becomes a very small market) steel boats actually become competitive against aluminum and FRP in all ways, because the displacement is now large enough that the weight of the steel no longer is a major factor.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:40   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
BTY, if you want easy motion, besides bigger than average displacement, you want a lower B/D ratio (under 37%) and avoid wide beams.

Our first boat was 33' LOD, 11,000 displacment with B/D ratio of 44%, draft of 6', LWL 27.3 and beam of 11'.

Our current steel boat is 36' LOD, 17,000 displacement (design, actual is more I think) with B/D ratio of 35%, draft of 6' 1", LWL 30.3 and beam of 11.5'.

The boats are not that different in size, but the difference in motion has to be felt to be believed. It's amazing. I'll never go back to a stiff boat. Yes the other boat went to the windward a tad better, but the motion difference is a huge difference, a difference I wasn't prepared for when I bought the boat. Never go back, ever. This is a topic about which most modern boat owners (read light and stiff boats) have no clue. Motion is greatly underrated in todays market. Motion is not very important if you are a weekend sailor, or are a young sailor. But for the not so young and the long-term sailor, I would look into it.
__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:41   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
I thought you could actually get around that with size, and that somewhere around forty feet (which becomes a very small market) steel boats actually become competitive against aluminum and FRP in all ways, because the displacement is now large enough that the weight of the steel no longer is a major factor.
Agreed. I believe I said the problem related to small steel boats, like mine at 36.5 feet.
__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2007, 10:44   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer
The biggest problem with smaller steel boats, IMO, is not the rust (assuming it's been painted correctly). It's inadequate SA/D. That's a much tougher nut to crack. That problem is almost insurmountable.
I mentioned size in my first post, but did not emphasize it properly in my follow up posts. Sorry.
__________________

__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opinions: Steel Boats ? Zach Monohull Sailboats 24 14-07-2010 15:36
Cats, Weight, Performance and Value Intentional Drifter Multihull Sailboats 23 18-01-2007 10:40
Boat Age and faith? Zach Monohull Sailboats 19 15-10-2006 18:11
Decisions, Decisions..... bajamas Monohull Sailboats 14 17-09-2004 20:24
is there a huge difference in price between... fujiwara takumi General Sailing Forum 10 26-08-2004 03:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:20.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.