question for the teak and deck gurus

[RLewis]

Thanks all for such good advice and insight. Greg I appreciate all of your thoughts- that was a lot of typing. Insequent- certianly I hope this thread survives until your deck repair is complete- even if it dies out I would appreciate a follow up email.
So far I have not run for the hills but realize now that as Greg suggests - an investment in a cursory survey may be money well spent. And as you say- I would need it cheap if I am to still pursue it or move on to another. Not sure where it stands now as the broker was supposed to talk to the owner about the rot and determine is the lisiting would continue with repairs done now or drop the listing entirerly or start talking about financial consideration- so far I have not heard back.
Thanks again for all of the information all of you have offered. If there is any more I certainly appreciative of it. Thanks Randy

[RLewis]

Hi- thanks to all for the great feedback- I posted this reply last week- but as I dont see it on the thread I am posting agian- thanks again especially to Greg and Insequent Lots of typing and great information Greg- thanks
Insequent - yes would love a follow up email after your project is complete- very interest in who did the work and to your level of satisfaction and expectation in additon to cost- appreciate your feedback.
Waikikin- good photos and appreciate your input-

Thanks again to all who provided a lot of great informaiton for me Randy

[foolishsailor]

Poeple can say all they want about how teak can be steamed but it illustrtes a lack of knowledge about how teak is harvested.

oak steams well beause of the way it is generally harvested - green oak is the best wood in the world to steam due to its water content.

Teak however tends to be girdled at harvest. That means the tree is partially cut so that the wood dries as part of a tree and then is cut and shipped, this makes the wood weigh less and less warpage durinig shipping - equals more money to the farm...

what it also means is that it is not ideal for steaming....

...doesnt mean you cant steam it, it just means you need to have limited expectations.

1. If you want to steam bend teak dont look for radical curves
2. Have a former in place to drop the hot teak plan into
3. Soak the teak in water for at at least 3 days before steaming...teak doesnt like to take up water which is why it is a grat marine wood and also a shitty steaming wood. Letting it soak this long gets the water in as best you can to then be heated up in the steam box...
4. Throw it in a steam box. Normally it is an hour an inch - double that
5. Have help and heat resistant gloves when it comes out - dont even waste 30seconds - get it in the former immediately after the steam box
6. Leave it ther 24 hours or more if it is a hot wet climate
7. Maybe this should be point 1 - ther will be spring back - so if this is a problem plan for ti and make the radius 15-20% tighter to account for it. you wont be able to totally eliminate the spring bakc but you can plan and clamp for it during install...

Alot depends on the quality of the teak you buy as well...it is old growth with a nice tight striaght grain or is it forced new growth....

hope that helps

edit:

There is a huge difference between mechanically fastened teak planks like on a carvel planked hull and curved piecs on a teak deck. I have planked two carvel hulls using teak and it is a joy to steam and clamp, and especially plane - oh the joy of planing old growth solid teak - like butter, but this is a different animal to decking...

[roverhi]

Balsa core is actually less prone to disintegration from water intrusion than plywood. Balsa core doesn't readily pass the water laterally between the cells of the vertical grain. Plywood will eventually soak completely through with water intrusion. They both will rot but the outward progreassion of the rot from the leak will be slower with Balsa. Almost all boats built in the US, not just lightweight racers used balsa core because it was easy to work with, lighter and cheaper than other core materials available. There were some that used plywood but not a lot. Ideal construction method was to use balsa for most of the coring and plywood under likely areas where deck hardware would be attached. The advantage of plywood is it is very hard to compress and makes a much more solid backing for any hardware installed. Unfortunately, it wicks water along the grain of the wood.

Personal opinion is that a lot of the water intrusion problems with Balsa are caused by not using backing plates and tightening the fasteners too tight compressing the core. Just worked on a boat that some gorilla installed most of the hardware. Everywhere there was a padeye or block, the deck was compressed. Had to cut out the resulting rotten core and laminate those areas of the deck in solid glass.

If there is any movement in a piece of deck hardware it's already a leaker. Possibly the movement in that cleat is caused by the already rotted core.

Personally, I'd get rid of the teak ASAP. It will be a headache for as long as you own the boat. Be prepared for extensive core replacement because of the fasteners. It's very very hard to properly bed fasteners in caulk running them through the teak. Polysulfide or any other caulk tends to migrate from the threads of the screw to the surrounding teak making a mess that's very hard to clean up before the plugs go in. Those industrious Chinese who had probably never been closer to the ocean than a beach in their lives, most assuredly just bedded the teak board and ran the screws in dry.

[waikikin]

Originally Posted by RLewis

Hi I have seen so many great bits of information on so many different subjects- so I am hoping that I can get some good advice on this. I am considering buying a 1981 Taiwan sailboat with teak decks. The decks seem in good shape but here is my question. Lets assume I need to at some point replace a single deck stirp and it happens to be a curved peice? How do you find a match for the specific curvature? Many of the planks of course are straight and I could see how you could maybe manufacture a replacement piece from solid stock with the correct thickness and the rabbit points(is this how you would do it or is there a source to buy indiviual pieces?) - but how to curve a piece and then have the square ends at the correct angle? Do you use the old borken piece for a template and cut the curved piece from a wide sollid stock plank? The broker says these planks have the cotton bedding in between each course but I have inspected the areas where the caulking is missing and I see only rabbited joinery resulting in the ~1/8 gap to be caulked. There are currently no broken or missing pieces but what if you had to remove some of the planks at some point to repair a spongy or rotted area of the deck and broke a curved piece?
I assume that someone has had this kind of experience and can provide some good advice thanks RandyL

WEST SYSTEM | Modifying and Customizing Boats - Installing a teak deck on Zatara
Here's an article that chronicles the costs & process , I've never used the graphite system externally though so wouldn't comment on that. Jeff.

[Insequent]

I just finished my foredeck. I removed the teak myself, which was fairly easy as the fasteners were square drive screws that the epoxy came out of quite easily. I salvaged over 95% of the teak, but don't know what I'll do with it yet. The rest was completed by a contractor.

For those who just want numbers: contractor ended up at was $173/sq ft, to a very well faired finish. Included in that was 2.5 hours labour ($113) and $60 per sq ft in materials.

Because we could not support the deck from underneath due to a complicated headliner on ply then 3 to 4" gap to the lower glass layer of the deck, we did it in strips about 3' wide across the full width of the deck. Doing it in sections like this increased the labour, but avoided a lot of work to remove and replace the headliner. Had I wanted to store a dinghy up front then removing headliner and using the airspace to put some support bearers would have made sense. If I were ever to do this to another one of these OA's, I might go that route. Or add a third ply layer - see below.

The top layer of glass was cut and the wet/rotten balsa core removed. The lower glass was faired to be quite smooth and then two layers of 1/4" marine ply bonded down with overlapping seams. The deck is cambered so the result was reasonably stiff. Then topped off by about 3/16 of new glass. The end result was a deck restored to original 7/8" thickness.

But no teak back on top: awlgrip with glass beads to give an excellent non-slip finish instead. Were I doing it again I might have add a 3rd layer of 1/4" marine ply where the teak had been. ie just leave water channels at the side.

[foolishsailor]

Thanks for keeping us in the loop with the completion of the project. Always nice to see what people end up doing with a given project.

I love the look of teak myself but want no part of it on my own boat either. Lots of maintenance and in the tropics it gets so hot it will take the flesh off your feet.

[DSDman]

pics? wanna see!

[LakeSuperior]

You must put some bond breaker in the bottom of the caulking seam before recaulking the deck. This will allow the caulking to not pull away from the sides of the channel when expanding and contracting. The elasomer stress stays more one-dimensional in tension.

[Insequent]

Originally Posted by DSDman

pics? wanna see!

OK, here are a couple of quick ones.

Paint sequence was, after fairing/primer:

Awlgrip Stark White around edges, up to toe rail etc. You can see a line across from the base of the Portuguese bridge door. I've yet to buff the gelcoat above, then the line will be less obvious.

Then Awlgrip MoonDust with glass beads sprinkled on via 'salt shaker'. Two coats -second one gets the non-slip finish really even. Third coat of paint to seal tops of beads.

Masked off around cleats, avoid having non-slip chafe mooring lines.

[CarinaPDX]

Nice job!

[DSDman]

looks very nice, clean.

[boatsmith]

Teak does not steam well. Steaming softens cellulose cell walls and allows them to flex. The oil in teak impedes this process. We tried some hard bends and they broke in tension on the outside edge. Then we tried again with a steel strap on the outside edge and we got compression breaks on the inside. In the Fine Woodworking book "Bending Wood" there is an article from some university where they have quantified the bending characteristics of various species. Teak comes in at 3 out of a hundred where a hundred is the easiest to steam.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by boatsmith

Teak does not steam well. Steaming softens cellulose cell walls and allows them to flex. The oil in teak impedes this process. We tried some hard bends and they broke in tension on the outside edge. Then we tried again with a steel strap on the outside edge and we got compression breaks on the inside. In the Fine Woodworking book "Bending Wood" there is an article from some university where they have quantified the bending characteristics of various species. Teak comes in at 3 out of a hundred where a hundred is the easiest to steam.

Yeah, I learned it the hard way, after breaking a couple pieces of teak on my first boat build, i used white oak for those special hoops....

[waikikin]

Originally Posted by boatsmith

Teak does not steam well. Steaming softens cellulose cell walls and allows them to flex. The oil in teak impedes this process. We tried some hard bends and they broke in tension on the outside edge. Then we tried again with a steel strap on the outside edge and we got compression breaks on the inside. In the Fine Woodworking book "Bending Wood" there is an article from some university where they have quantified the bending characteristics of various species. Teak comes in at 3 out of a hundred where a hundred is the easiest to steam.

Which is all true, but of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't steam it if required, what's important is to work within the capabilities of the timber species & sort through your stock for pieces that are more suited. If a particular species has been specified for use, the choice is there to bend with or without the help of steam or to work the required structure out of solid timber or to laminate, both of the later will be more expensive in time & material, of course again if it wont take the bend that is what will have to be done.
All the best in your endeavours from Jeff