Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-04-2016, 14:37   #31
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: CS27
Posts: 1,739
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

You would be better to start with a good design and work with the interior space it has. There won't be that much difference in actual space between designs.

Steel is not a great material for a boat so small though. Below is the specs for the Van de Stadt 34, a popular design for wood, aluminum, and steel. Notice the steel one has less ballast and is almost a ton heavier.

Steel is better for boats in the high 30's and comes into its own at about 45' compared to the weight of other materials.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Van de Stadt 34.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	105.6 KB
ID:	122921  
__________________

__________________
mitiempo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 14:49   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,172
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Quote: "Steel boats in this size range don't generally have structural bulkheads, and the interior furniture does not generally play a structural role (unlike in a glass boat), thus making the interior highly modifiable by the amateur builder."

I don't think there is anything "generally" about it since steel boats as small as this are not really a paying proposition so there ain't many of them. Assuming 1/8" plate, so's the hull won't "oil can", the MINIMUM weight of the bare hull is gonna be 2 1/2 tons. By the time you get the ballast in, she'll already have a greater displacement than TrentePieds. Thereafter comes the weight of appointments, rig, crew and "cargo" such as food and water. It's doable but on thirty feet it's gonna be tough to get enough canvas that she won't be a dog.

In a thirty footer the engine weight will be about 350 lbs so, call it 500lbs with stern gear. In a sense that's neither here nor there - at least not in terms of immersion per pound, though it certainly can be in terms of trim. But since the portents are that she'll be a dog, you should prolly not eschew the engine - SOMETHING is gonna have to motivate 'er :-).

quote: "But if the possibilities for interior layout are limited by the plans (and they will inevitably be limited to some extent, e.g. by mast placement), all the more reason to know what interior I want before I start shopping for plans (i.e. I simply will not buy plans which make it impossible to install the kind of interior that I want)."

If you are gonna buy off-the-peg plans anyway, or have a Naval Architect draw the lines, you should prolly acknowledge that members of SNAME will have far more accumulated technically specific training, knowledge and experience than any of us can glean off a cruisers' forum :-)

Count your blessings and buy a complete set of bespoke plans. It won't cost you much more than the total purchase price of TrentePieds :-)! With a little patience you'll be able to find a thirty-footer for say $8K and you're ready to go. At 8K you'd expect to have to do some upgrades, but they'll amount to far less work and expense than what you are proposing to do.

Remember that ULTIMATELY the boat is gonna have to change hands. Sell or sink. The sinking of a orphan boat tends to cost big bux and big hassles :-)!

TrentePieds
__________________

__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 15:10   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Amateurish... Mast is not in the correct location... where are the stair/ladder to the cockpit....

advice: find a plan modify and build. You need to work in 3D not in 2D.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 15:34   #34
Registered User
 
goat's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Everywhere (Sea of Cortez right now)
Boat: PSC Orion 27
Posts: 1,098
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

I don't know where you are living, but if you've got a stationary store nearby, grab a pad of graph paper. Use each square as one square foot, or what ever scale you want to use.

Ampad« Efficiency Graph Pad, 8-1/2" x 11", 4 x 4 Quadrille Ruled, White, 50 Sheets, Each (22-030) | Staples┬«

3 buck investment in your future.

goat
__________________
goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 15:39   #35
Registered User
 
KISS's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 317
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Amateurish... Mast is not in the correct location... where are the stair/ladder to the cockpit....

advice: find a plan modify and build. You need to work in 3D not in 2D.
Something tells me you didn't read the thread beyond the OP...

__________________
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable."

-- Seneca
KISS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 15:47   #36
Registered User
 
KISS's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 317
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat View Post
I don't know where you are living, but if you've got a stationary store nearby, grab a pad of graph paper. Use each square as one square foot, or what ever scale you want to use.

Ampad« Efficiency Graph Pad, 8-1/2" x 11", 4 x 4 Quadrille Ruled, White, 50 Sheets, Each (22-030) | Staples┬«

3 buck investment in your future.

goat
When I get to the point of buying study plans for the boat, so I have the exact proportions of things, mast placement, etc, I will definitely do that.

At this stage, I'm just doing a rough layout: thinking about the trade-offs involved (e.g. of the several things which are best placed near the companionway, which takes priority?). Things like that.

Thanks!
__________________
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable."

-- Seneca
KISS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 15:52   #37
Registered User
 
KISS's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 317
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

@mitiempo & TrentePieds

I realize that steel is sub-optimal from a weight perspective in smaller boats, but there are in fact lots of perfectly seaworthy 30' (or smaller) steel boats out there. Several well known designers offer plans for steel boats in this range. Steel and small both have their advantages, which IMO outweigh the disadvantages. In any event, steel v. glass is outside the scope of this thread.
__________________
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable."

-- Seneca
KISS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 16:23   #38
Registered User
 
Sailor Doug's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lake Erie
Boat: H36
Posts: 384
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Build what you can build we all have different skills. In this size boat you really have to use every square inch. Designing in 3D is a challenge. Aft quarter berth should be considered. Things in the back half of the boat are so much better on the water.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Sailor Doug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 17:54   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Sorry to sound a down note... and please go build your own... Yacht design... is a serous complex engineering endeavor and the accommodation plan is only ONE of many inputs.

There are many good plans out there... done by talented naval architects... avail yourself of their wisdom.

or do it yourself... and get amateur and perhaps unsafe results.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 18:02   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 43
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Stick the head way in the bow, just behind the collision bulkhead, its light weight and you only use it a few minutes a day so no use giving the best part of the boat, give it at least 3 feet pref 4 for a decent shower, lots of storage on the sides if done right, that allows you to bring the settees a bit back.

Also consider eliminating the galley midship, just have a minimal rainy/stormy day 2 foot mini galley up front, well designed it can be better than some of the large ones you see, no use wasting the best part of a boat for that either, have a pop up wind proofed grill/ outdoor galley in the aft for entertaining, good weather cruising, not hard to design in.

Move the nav forward, maybe opposite the mini galley, a good half chart width would do.

Just some thoughts.
__________________
On The Water is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 18:19   #41
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: CS27
Posts: 1,739
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KISS View Post
@mitiempo & TrentePieds

I realize that steel is sub-optimal from a weight perspective in smaller boats, but there are in fact lots of perfectly seaworthy 30' (or smaller) steel boats out there. Several well known designers offer plans for steel boats in this range. Steel and small both have their advantages, which IMO outweigh the disadvantages. In any event, steel v. glass is outside the scope of this thread.
Seaworthy and slow. I am not suggesting fiberglass. Aluminum is a better choice and wins on many counts. As light as fiberglass, less maintenance than steel, higher resale than steel and then there are those pesky rust streaks.

Even the Dutch - the masters of steel construction - have switched to aluminum.

Look at the attachment in my post. The numbers for the aluminum and wood versions are the same with the steel version about 2000 lbs heavier - with less ballast even. Not hard to see which will sail better.
__________________
mitiempo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 19:01   #42
Registered User
 
KISS's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 317
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by On The Water View Post
Stick the head way in the bow, just behind the collision bulkhead, its light weight and you only use it a few minutes a day so no use giving the best part of the boat, give it at least 3 feet pref 4 for a decent shower, lots of storage on the sides if done right, that allows you to bring the settees a bit back.

Also consider eliminating the galley midship, just have a minimal rainy/stormy day 2 foot mini galley up front, well designed it can be better than some of the large ones you see, no use wasting the best part of a boat for that either, have a pop up wind proofed grill/ outdoor galley in the aft for entertaining, good weather cruising, not hard to design in.

Move the nav forward, maybe opposite the mini galley, a good half chart width would do.

Just some thoughts.
Some interesting ideas, thanks!

If you didn't see it, check out the amended plan in post #27.

I rearranged some things and added a berth much further aft.
__________________
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable."

-- Seneca
KISS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 19:10   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,172
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

And not necessarily seaworthy :-)

Coupla points:

A 30 foot hull with no interior structural cross members (which seems to be the OP's intention) if made hard-chined from 1/8" plate is gonna twist and turn and shimmy like nobody's business. An even constructed so inadequately that, at design displacement, will leave only a ton for all else!

The volume of the canoe body of a 30 x 10 sailboat [25 (LWL) x 8 (B) x 1.5 (T)] is roughly 120 CuFt, assuming C(b) of .4, so say, 7,600lbs in salt water.
This is heavier than TrentePieds. She is 9,000lbs ready for sea, at the aforementioned 25x8x1.5 dimensions.

If 1/8" plate bulkheads are fitted where necessary the weight of your proposed hull alone is gonna sneak up to 3 1/2 tons, anyway, which exhausts the entire flotation of the canoe body leaving NOTHING for rig, fittings, arrangements, crew and cargo!

Weatherliness is sine qua non in cruising boats - particularly engineless ones. A cruising boat that isn't weatherly isn't a SAFE cruising boat. A steel dog CANNOT be made weatherly. Right up there with ferro-dogs :-)! A steel dog will always be a danger to her crew and all who might take pity on that crew and try to get 'em off a lee shore.

Ah, well - time to go sailing :-)

Cheers

TrentePieds
__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-04-2016, 20:30   #44
Registered User
 
KISS's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 317
Re: Proposed Boat Interior Layout - How Does This Look?

@TrentePieds

This is the last I'll say about it, as it is off-topic, but I reiterate that there have been many 30' or less steel designs produced by professional designers. Van de Stadt, for instance, has done over a dozen. Bruce Roberts currently has 7 plans for such boats, ranging from 30' all the way down to 22'. Search a yacht sales website for steel boats 30' or less and note the names of the designers/builders. I know a couple members here at CF have H-28s, and love them.

All else being equal, a steel boat in this range is going to be slower than a glass or aluminum equivalent, of course, but it does not follow that they are unsafe or unseaworthy.
__________________

__________________
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable."

-- Seneca
KISS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
interior

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Interior layout...why? JakePev Construction, Maintenance & Refit 17 23-04-2014 06:53
Sailboat Interior Layout jakegator Monohull Sailboats 8 25-01-2012 20:05
Proposed New Bahamas Fishing Regulations ? GordMay Atlantic & the Caribbean 16 19-01-2007 03:22
Charter sailboat firm proposed for Milwaukee CaptainK Great Lakes 0 11-04-2006 20:08
Proposed World Rally NOvember 2007 swagman Other 0 09-02-2006 10:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.