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Old 29-04-2010, 20:11   #1
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Please Help Me Build My Boat

The agony of building a custom design. It would have been far simpler for me to buy a production boat where it's all done for you without all the choices. I have yet to decide on the exact sailplan. I have had plenty of opinions from boat builders and sailmakers but what I really need is opinions from people who are out there cruising. What would you do ?

My 42' 12 ton fin keel cruising yacht is nearly half way there. The basic design is a masthead sloop with a detatchable inner forestay and a self-tending staysail. I have searched all the threads on the merits and demerits of fitting furlers on the inner stay and it's obviously a preference thing. I would prefer to fit a furler, but if I do it leaves me with the following questions:

Is a storm jib attatched to the foil on the inner stay going to be strong enough. I am trying to avoid the idea of rolling the staysail to storm jib size because of the loads that will put on the furling line and drum. The sailmaker has told me there is no problem but is he being optimistic? Does anyone out there have a storm jib fitted to a furling inner stay?

The basic design calls for a 135% genoa and I'm OK with that except for when I'm inshore and will be required to tack the genoa around a fixed inner stay. I am well aware that I can partially roll it up first, but that would require work. Given that this boat is really a sloop, not a cutter, would it be easier to have a moderately sized yankee that I can put on the forestay when I'm inshore to be used in conjunction with the staysail. I am presuming this arrangement would tack a lot easier than trying to tack the 135% genoa around the furled staysail. When I don't need to be tacking every 20 minutes I can put the 135% back up.

Am I dreaming ? Thanks in advance for all your wisdom, Greg
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Old 30-04-2010, 03:08   #2
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Quote:
Is a storm jib attatched to the foil on the inner stay going to be strong enough. I am trying to avoid the idea of rolling the staysail to storm jib size because of the loads that will put on the furling line and drum. The sailmaker has told me there is no problem but is he being optimistic?
This was discussed in another thread recently - opinions are split.

Quote:

The basic design calls for a 135% genoa and I'm OK with that except for when I'm inshore and will be required to tack the genoa around a fixed inner stay. I am well aware that I can partially roll it up first, but that would require work. Given that this boat is really a sloop, not a cutter, would it be easier to have a moderately sized yankee that I can put on the forestay when I'm inshore to be used in conjunction with the staysail. I am presuming this arrangement would tack a lot easier than trying to tack the 135% genoa around the furled staysail. When I don't need to be tacking every 20 minutes I can put the 135% back up.
I have a sloop that has a inner stay added on after. In light winds it's a pain to tack. Stronger winds it goes through OK, but there's a lot of winding in to do.

It's such a pain that I take it off when inshore

I believe the problem is that the inner stay is too close to the forestay.

A CF member - Dockhead I think - has a a roller on his inner stay and he says it works a treat with a yankee.
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Old 30-04-2010, 06:39   #3
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So typically, what percentage of the fortriangle should a yankee be and what sort of drive is a yankee and staysail likely to give compared to a normal headsail on a sloop.
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Old 30-04-2010, 07:04   #4
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I have a 150 genoa, recently developed my knotting to provide a cleaner pass over the fixed staysail rigging wire. No problems before just too prone to snag and wear as a result, only once did I have to trot forward and help it around.
My Staysail is always used and, according to various sources, helps to control the flow of air from the genoa onto the back of the main controlling stalling of the main.
I have a Storm Staysail too. I'll fit it whenever the wind gets above 35kts and then I don't have to go forward again, the genoa will already be part reefed by then.
If a full out storm is forecast it might be a good idea to reduce weight and drag from the rigging by dropping the genoa and stowing below.
Running gull wing in light air is with the stay opposite to the other two. The main fills the stay, the stay spills into the genoa. All stay up and working though I probably should drag the spinnaker out by the time the wind is so light the genoa won't stay full.
Incidentally a coloured staysail, preferably orange (mines red), makes a great emergency flag hung wrongly, and makes your boat readily identifiable at other times, AND visible.
LifeSavers all criticize sailors for their white sails and blue boats. Searching stormy waters for sailors in need of assistance more difficult because of lack of clear colours.
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Old 30-04-2010, 07:05   #5
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The genoa sheet is now in one piece, cockpit to tie on point to cockpit. Tidier, cleaner, and easier to control both ends at once.
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Old 30-04-2010, 12:40   #6
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Aloha,

It appears you have the same size and weight boat that I am rebuilding. I plan a cutter or slutter rig much as you have but am adding bowsprit to put my sail plan a bit more forward. It will be 5' from forestay (yankee) to staysail stay and I'm hoping that's the best. Unfortunately I'm a long way from experience with this rig so can't give you specifics. My mast is 17' back from the staysail stay chainplate and will be 22 feet back of the forestay. Its a 48' deck stepped mast.

As a sloop the prior owner and builder said she balanced well but, like I said, I have no experience with her on the water.

kind regards,
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Old 30-04-2010, 13:08   #7
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SkiprJohn, I have no experience but that 5' from fore stay to stay stay sounds more like the stay sail is an alternative, not a combination sail. I'm going out tomorrow for a weekend trip, if I get time I'll measure the various dimensions but you'll have to allow for more aft mast rig. Might make sense to run a full stay sail in heavier winds with a reefed main as an alternative to a full but lighter foresail for lighter weather with a full main. Just a thought, not an instruction. If you have a sail maker to hand I'd get some advice on where to plant the mast, and the rake, also vital to performance and looks.
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Old 30-04-2010, 20:43   #8
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G'Day Greg,

As you may have noticed when you were aboard, I-2 has a Solent rig (fractional with a second forestay going to the same set of hounds as the regular one, and the bottom set back about 5 feet). Our genoa is a mere 120%, and FWIW we are forced to roll it up to tack it. A BIG PITA... I hate it! The stays'l (really more like a #4 jib) is on a roller and still has a Hyfield lever for "easy" detachment. But, it isn't easy to re-attach it at sea should you need it, so we seldom do it. I'm still considering what to do to improve the situation.

However, with parallel stays set five feet apart, life should be a bit better. Further, on I-one, which had a conventional inner forestay, we often had the stays'l set inside the genny when going to windward. Didn't seem to change the performance much either way, but acted as a "tacking aid" -- with the stays'l still backed, the genny just slid across it quite easily. Once the genny was sheeted home, we'd tack the stays'l. Worked very well indeed, and I suspect that the same practice would work on the Bluewater.

Finally, a storm staysail should not be a problem for a properly sized furler. The problem is getting the regular stays'l off and the storm sail on under bad conditions. The much talked about "Gale Sail", which is set over a rolled up jib/stays'l sounds like a solution, but despite the adverts claims, I've never spoken to anyone who has actually used one under serious conditions. One of those things that look good in the glossy brochures, but never seem to see the light of day (or the dark and stormy night) in reality.

Thanks again for the nice Hunter Valley wine, and for coming by to see us.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Church Point (again!) NSW Oz
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Old 01-05-2010, 01:42   #9
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Eleven,
As I get closer to rigging I'll be talking with sail makers. I'd heard that some folks have problems tacking their yankee through the slot if there isn't much room. I think 5' between the stays is a pretty good distance?
Jim and Ann seem to have the rig I'm thinking of and they hate it so maybe I'll be rethinking all this?
regards,
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:42   #10
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Hi Jim, I actually didn't really check out your rigging. Our visitors were needing to get home. Particularly for Heidi, cruising (or anything for that matter) is about the people she meets and it was great for her to meet (and like) some people who are actually out there doing it. So many of the "experts" we've met have not really done it. I'll keep looking for more threads with info on the yankee & staysail. I still want the overlapping genoa. I'm just after a nice easy inshore alternative. I'll follow your whereabouts with interest, Greg.
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