Planning the KISS Boat

[captain58sailin]

No one ever dies saying "I wish, I had spent more time at work." Nor do they say " I wish I hadn't had all that sex."

[Matt sachs]

Originally Posted by KISS

Interesting, thanks Matt.

Do you think insulation is necessary in the Caribbean?

I don;t mean for keeping the heat down, I mean for avoiding condensation.

Yes, I do.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Yes, I do.

Is this because she is a steel boat?

We sail a plastic one and only get condensation in relatively cold waters.

Cheers,
b.

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by KISS

How much peat moss (or whatever) do you have to use?

You can use peat moss, wood chips, coconut husks, sawdust .... You have many options. We use coconut husks personally. A 1' square block of CocoTek lasts us about 8 months.

Originally Posted by KISS

No electric or manual bilge pump can handle serious flooding, not enough GPM. That's why I have a 2" trash pump listed in the emergency gear.

I would bet 99.99% of bilge pump use is not for serious flooding. However when you have a slow leak that requires you to pump 10 gallons an hour and you manual pump stops working this can become a serious situation given enough time. If you are single handing rebuilding your pump on the fly is a major hassle. Especially in rough conditions. Doing it three times in one day a a major, major hassle.

[Stu Jackson]

Some More REAL WORLD and Experience Comments

Originally Posted by KISS

A good point. On the other hand, though, a single battery is likely to be more efficient (bad batteries vampirize good batteries).

Wrong, just plain wrong. Reality, based on 35 years pf personal experience, as well as that of hundreds of thousands of sailors says that multiple smaller batteries 1) work just as well; 2) can be replaced if one battery in a bank fails; 3) are better for your helath, i.e., your back; 4) a batttery monitor is a MUST HAVE, whether a Victron or a Smart Gauge

Originally Posted by laika

Case in point, you propose an above the waterline galley sink drain via electric pump as opposed to simply maintaining a proper gravity-fed thru hull. It's supposed to be KISS, but that's a pretty complex system for draining a sink.

I agree. Personal experience: Our PO made a big mistake: He plumbed a BIG loop in the galley sink drain to an underwater thru hull, and then took the galley sink drain to the fridge box foot pump. To empty the galley sink one needed to use the foot pump to drain any water out of the sink. This got very tiresome. I even added an electric pump!!! I finally simply plumbed it correctly to the underwater thru hull to drain by KISS: GRAVITY. 1) an above waterline sink drain is nonsense; 2) pumping, even foot pumping is stupid and unnecessary.

There was a guy here once named Scoobert, who started asking about how long it would take him to go from NY to FL, he said five days. 57 pages (!!!!) later, he kept arguing with those folks who suggested he start by doing the math, and that he had some very BAD ideas. You remind me of him.

Take a breather, stop arguing with those who are giving you long, well earned and learned experience.

The very best way to learn about boat systems is to get your head out of the books for a while. Books are great starting points, and many of us spend a lot of time on boating forums imploring folks to read books, but these two examples indicate to me that you need some hands on experience, which you can only get, IMHO, by owning and sailing your own boat.

I had sheet to tiller steering on my Catalina 25 for many years before I got the $$ saved for an autopilot. I got so good at it I could tack the boat in SF Bay on a crowded weekend afternoon. I won't be the first, nor the last, to say your idea in this regard is not reality-based. John Letcher's book remains one of my favorites, too.

[Matt sachs]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Is this because she is a steel boat?

We sail a plastic one and only get condensation in relatively cold waters.

Cheers,
b.

Yes, steel and A/C. I also will be in cold climates at least part of the time.

[Pauls]

If you're looking for a boat which is steel, KISS, and good for cruising I'd recommend you buy Brent Swain's book. You can find it searching under origami boat building. I'm in the middle of a rebuild of a steel boat and I can tell you that it would have been faster to build an origami from scratch. In addition, Brent's boats are a full system design to be simple and inexpensive to build and maintain. This means rig, tankage, engine system, anchoring, etc. They're pretty unique that way, designed by a guy that has lived aboard for about 30 years, crossed the Pacific I think 9 times, has designed a series of boats and has built dozens of them. Buy the DVD from Alex Christie. It shows Brent, mostly working by himself, building a 36 footer in 9 DAYS. That includes hull, decks cabin, cockpit, tanks, wheelhouse, etc all tacked together. If you know anything at all about boatbuilding it is mindblowing watching that video.

I've built a lot of stuff in my life. It's often easier to build it right from scratch than it is to fix a bunch of things that were built wrong.

[Panope]

A simple water system.

Two main tanks built into hull (metal boat). Tank fill under sink (white cap).
One, single lever tank selector valve (yellow handle).
One whale foot pump.
One filter.
One drain tank (blue jug. 7 gal.).

Empty jug by dumping over side of boat. If weather stormy, dump in cockpit.
Log "jug dumps" to keep track of remaining water supply.

Steve

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Some More REAL WORLD and Experience Comments





There was a guy here once named Scoobert, who started asking about how long it would take him to go from NY to FL, he said five days. 57 pages (!!!!) later, he kept arguing with those folks who suggested he start by doing the math, and that he had some very BAD ideas. You remind me of him.

Stu, he's young....he thinks he has it all figured out and possibly he didn't really come looking for advice as much as he came expecting everyone to tell him how brilliant he is for having designed the best cruising boat ever. He isn't arguing....he's just trying to get us to see the errors of our ways, because obviously we haven't done enough reading to realize how great all this is.

[charliehows]

wouldnt ya love to see it though - the back end of the boat sticking up in the air weighed down by an enormous anchor and hundreds of feet of chain, the great rack of electronic gadgets in the cockpit, the constant running off to get the battery charged somewhere in order to get the motor started, followed by the inevitable visit from a hire barge to haul aforesaid anchor back off the seabed. It'd keep me amused anyway, but i doubt whether any of this will make it off the net - shame...

[sctpc]

Gee you guys are starting to get rude. The guys after advice and would like to know why it want work , when he starts sailing he will see but don't make people not want to ask as if it's considered not to your level they will be picked on.

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by sctpc

Gee you guys are starting to get rude. The guys after advice and would like to know why it want work , when he starts sailing he will see but don't make people not want to ask as if it's considered not to your level they will be picked on.

I don't want to be rude, and certainly don't want to "pick on" the young man. However, you have to ask yourself..... a young person who has never sailed on a boat before comes to a forum to ask the advice of people who have collectively sailed hundreds of thousands of miles and then debates every piece of advice they try to give....doesn't seem like he's really looking for answers. It sounds like he has already made up his mind and just wants validation. Which is fine, we all do that sometimes, but he has made up his mind based on zero experience.

I hope that at some point he goes back over the good advice he has been given and puts it to good use. The best advice being, get a boat and start sailing. It sounds like his heart and his desire are in the right place because he has obviously put a tremendous about of time and thought into it. But it's like kids I know who think they can learn to drive by playing video games...at some point you have to get out there and do it and see what it feels like for real. And honestly, to think that you can design the perfect cruising boat without having ever spent a day under sail is an exercise in futility.

We have owned a dozen boats and have been sailing for over 30 years and we still change our ideas about what we want and need based on experiences that we have while sailing. And our ideas about what is important in a boat are so different now than they were back when what we had was an abundance of book knowledge and little actual experience.

KISS.... I know you think you don't want to get the wrong boat and you honestly believe that by thinking this to death you can avoid having a "transitional" boat, although I am not sure why that is such a bad thing. So what if your first boat, or even your first couple of boats, are less than your perfect dream boat. I think it is the rare person who starts out sailing the perfect boat and sticks with it forever. Most of us have owned a variety of boats and have learned something different from each of them, until we can take those collective experiences and then decide what it is that makes up our perfect boat. And you don't have to lose your shirt on those beginner boats either. Buy something cheap that needs some fixing up. You'll learn a TON of stuff you'll need to know while cruising and maybe make a buck or two when you sell. But the experience you'll gain will be invaluable. While you're waiting to try and make this illusion of perfection a reality (and even those of us who know exactly what we want still somehow end up with boats that present at least a couple of compromises) you are missing out on years of fun just learning to sail.

[Mike OReilly]

As I said, the lad (or is it lass) should get a solid, inexpensive keel boat in the 25 to 30 foot range, and actually spend some time sailing, cruising and OWNING a cruising sailboat. That's the best way to answer the miriade of questions that goes into finding The Boat.

That said, I too think some of you old salts could go easier on KISS. His heart is in the right place. He's obviously spent some considerable time thinking about things, and has the makings of a salty cruiser. Give him some space. Be kind. He's asking some of the right questions. Yes he's young, but so were we all at one time. Clarity of youth is both annoying and joyful. Let it just be.

[gjordan]

Dont compare KISS with Scoobert. Scoobert was simple in the wrong sense. KISS is a bright young man that is brimming with ideas, that just need to be tempered with time and experience. I have a 23 year old son who is overflowing with ideas, and is cock sure of himself. Reminds me of KISS. As the earlier posts from KISS are re-read, he is designing a boat that will be so simple that it will make a very difficult cruising boat. Simplicity to the point of difficulty is STUPID. I have done the engineless cruising, and gone through many coral passes without an engine, but it was in a much smaller and more nimble boat than KISS is talking about. Not having an engine makes for much limitations on where you can go. Crossing an ocean without an engine is silly simple, but at both ends of the passage, an engine makes life much SIMPLER. I truly like simplicity.l I like a diesel with a hand crank capability, and foot pumps for water, but why make life difficult if you can have reasonable conveniences, with simple backups. DONT LET THE TWO SSs IN KISS GET CONFUSED. _______Grant.

[carstenb]

If you want a simple boat - buy the Pardey's boat - I believe it is for sale. They have sailed "simply".