Planning the KISS Boat

[KISS]

Originally Posted by sctpc

I dont get why you would not want a chartplotter even as a backup, You mention you will have a tablet for multiple uses.
You can get Navionics for that for a whopping $15 and id say you would use it when it came down to it.

Originally, I was planning to use Navionics for Android as my primary. Then I decided against it because I didn't want to rely on an electronic (esp. a consumer grade electronic not designed for marine use). But, I agree, if I'm going to have a tablet anyway (for weatherfax), I might as well add the cheap electronic charts as a backup.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by carstenb

700' of rode for when you want to anchor at depths of 100'? Hmmm I suspect you'll find you won't be doing this very often. I would also suggest that even though you may be able to lift the extra sections of chain and carry them, hooking them together will be entertaining if the deck is heaving. Not to mention that trying to haul up 700 feet of chain? By hand?

I've spent a stupid amount of mental energy on the windlass question.

There's only one manual windlass in production, the Lofrans Royal, which looks flimsy to me - and considering the way things are going (everybody wants electric), who knows how long it will remain in production: aka who knows how long I'd be able to find spare parts. There are magnificent bronze beasts out there on Ebay, but, again...availability of spares. That's why I settled on a chain stopper and manual halyard winch in place of a proper anchor windlass. If that proved unworkable, I'd have to go with the Lofrans.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Hi KISS, and welcome. I'd suggest you get acquainted with the various frugal cruising threads ($500/month) if you haven't already. Lots of good ideas have been tossed around.

Yep, great stuff there. I'm currently up to page 69 on goprisko's thread.

Read another one some time ago.

I've scanned some of your PDFs, and it's obvious you've put a lot of thought into it all. I wonder how much actual sailing and cruising you've done yet. Nothing like actual experience to learn what one really needs.

Building this boat is at least 6 years off.

In the meantime, I plan to get some experience: courses, crew, bare-boat.

I agree your anchor system is overkill. Nothing particularly wrong with that, as long as it remains manageable. Without a windlass hauling a 88# anchor with all-chain from any depth is going to be a Hurculean undertaking. My suggestion is to add a good manual windlass to your system, and drop a size or two for your bower anchor. FYI, our 37', 28,000# full keeler has a 55# Rocna as our bower, with 250' of 3/8" all chain. This has never failed to hold us through some mighty blows. Also carry an assortment of additional anchors, including a monster Fortress, but the bower holds us 98% of the time with never a problem. And we too anchor out almost all the time.

As I said to the other poster, I'd love to have a good manual windlass: but options are limited.

In looking at your lists it seems in some places you've focused on the KISS side, but in other areas like collision avoidance you've gone all-in with the fancy technology. Nothing wrong with that, but I do wonder if you've sorted the needs from the wants. I know I still struggle with this.

Not getting run down by a container ship at 4AM is #1 on the list.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get lots of comments. It might be a more focused discussion if you break each section into a new thread. But have fun, and don't let the naysayers drag you down.

Thanks Mike

[KISS]

Originally Posted by gjordan

KISS, Mike Oreillys comments about a manual windlass should be paid attention to. I like big ground tackle, but your ideas are way overkill, and thinking you can use your back to get the weight up will leave you in dangerous situations if everything doesnt go perfectly. Rarely does anything go perfectly all of the time. My first cruising boat came with all chain, and no windlass. On my first coastal cruise, I pulled a musele in my back, and was stuck in an anchorage for several days waiting for the pain to let up. That boat was much smaller than what you are proposing. I installed a windlass as soon as I could afford it. I later removed the diesel from the boat and went on to cruise many thousands of miles, but The combination of no engine, and no windlass will handicap you many times, and could cost you your boat. On another note, there have been successful cruises with sheet to tiller steering, but again, why handicap yourself? If you think you can completely rebuild an older steel boat, then you can rebuild a used windvane. There is an Aries for sale in Morro Bay for sale for $300. I bought (my third ) one recently for $700, and there is an unused monitor for sale for $1700. You have stated that you have never sailed before, but think you can cruise single handed and engineless, with sheet to tiller steering (a rather difficult process), instead of spending a few hundred or even a couple of thousand for the most valuable piece of gear that can be bolted onto a boat shows that you are reading the romantic books, not the nuts and bolts books about cruising. Remember that Joshua Slocum and Bernard Moitesier had many years of sailing experience before they went RTW without a self steering device. Someone before me said "get some experience on OPs boats". That is the most valuable information on this thread. My first cruising boat was purchase by a guy who had never sailed before, but had read all of the books, and done a very good job of having it outfitted. It had a big plow,all chain rode, diesel, storm sails, windvane, Avon dinghy, etc, etc. He spent years planning, and took a knock down on another persons boat, and never sailed again. He never got his dream boat out of San Francisco Bay. My next cruising boat was built by a dreamer (out of steel) that had little or no sailing experience. He spent years and much money, and left single handed from Canada to England. He got 3 days out and hit a storm, turned around and went back to the coast and entered the first harbor he could find, tied up to the first dock he could find, and told the first broker he could find to sell it. I was told he didnt even go back on board. I did about 12 thousand miles on those 2 boats and had a great time. Someone else had spent the big bucks, and I got the pleasure. Get some serious sailing in before you spend years of your life, all of your money, and all of your dreams, for something you may or may not like. I am not at all opposed to keeping things simple, but not to the point that you handicap your safety, your ability to get where you want to go, and your ability to get enough rest by thinking sheet to tiller will work reliably. I think you get the point. _____Grant.

If I can't manage sheet to tiller, I'll have no choice but to get a windvane. But I'm not building this boat for several years, which gives me plenty of time to practice sheet to tiller - and everything else.

[RainDog]

Here are my thoughts:

Nav system: depth at nav is useless. Put at helm or in cockpit. You need a compass at the helm. Having two makes sense with your system.

Anchor: 88 is too big. 55 makes more sense. 500 feet of chain stored in the bilge is 500 feet you will never use. 200 feet plus another 200 of rope would be better. Anchoring system needs snubbers, chain stopper, and chafe gear.

Collision: radar does not belong on a kiss boat IMHO

Plumbing: composting head is better and much more kiss. The system you have outlined is crazy complex.

Emergency gear: manual bilge pumps are unreliable. Have an electric pump too. They are cheap and reliable.

Energy storage: multiple batteries is more kiss than one large. If you get a bad battery/cell you can drop one out and still have power.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

My advice is:

- do not get any all-in-ones. Get one-system-for-one-purpose.

- prefer manual over mechanical and mechanical over electrical / hydraulic.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Navigation Systems

paper maps (Imray)
• kept at navigation station

>>> a simple plotter seems simpler than a paper chart

You said: "prefer manual over mechanical and mechanical over electrical / hydraulic."

Anyway, a plotter may be simpler to use, but a paper chart is clearly simpler to keep running.

GPS for coordinates only (displayed on mounted VHF with built in GPS)
• kept at navigation station

>>> you lose the vhf = you lose gps, stupid
>>> get one system for each job,

You said: "do not get any all-in-ones. Get one-system-for-one-purpose."

Anyway, easier and cheaper to just buy a spare ($150).

Compass
• kept at navigation station

>>> I think you want the compass in the cockpit

Agreed

depth finder, through hull, standalone display
• kept at navigation station

>>> no, again, in the cockpit

Agreed

SSB receiver plugged into tablet with decoding software for weatherfax reports globally
• kept at navigation station

>>> wefax is not a global system,
>>> I would use radio / phone inshore

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/marine/rfax.pdf

That looks global to me.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Anchoring System

Primary/Storm Anchor
• best all around holding = Rocna

>>> are you going to anchor in best all round bottoms only?

I'll be anchoring in a variety of bottom conditions, hence the Rocna. Good all around, rather than awesome for one bottom and terrible at everything else. Bu if I have space/displacement to spare, I'll add specialty anchors for unusual bottoms: e.g. a fisherman for rocks.

[• best all around holding = Rocna

>>> no, you already have a Rocna there

The second one is a spare for the first.

more weight, sure you have enough displacement left to take some water and food?

No engine, no fuel tanks, only one person, only stores for one person - those weight savings exceed the entire weight of my ground tackle.

• stowed in stern locker when not deployed

>>> up to you, in our boat we keep No 2. on the deck ready to be deployed any time

Anchor rollers look flimsy to me.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Active X/S radar reflector/detector with alarm

>>> They do not reflect detect Broadband, or do they?

I don't believe so, just regular X and S band.

Anchor alarm
• tablet app

>>> most gps units have something.

True, but won't have a stand alone GPS.

General remark collision avoidance: beware high risk of colliding with other boats anchored nearby, especially if they are French.

Personal experience?

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Communication Systems

Mounted VHF transceiver
• kept at navigation station

>>> I would get a handheld dsc model too. Extra piece of safety equipment and very handy when steering and talking. Also usable for the guy in the dink.

Good point, I'll add it to the list - they're cheap.

General remark: no mobile phone on your list of comms? A smartphone gives you a backup for the tablet. Get one.

All the tablet does is translate weatherfaxes, that's not important enough to deserve a back up IMO (can still get some weather direct over the radio if the tablet dies).

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Engels 40 quart vertical fixed fridge

>>> make sure you have enough charging capacity (heaps) and enough battery storage to run this fridge, you can get everything fresh in the West Indies, a fridge is an optional extra,

I've got the electrical sorted, see the relevant PDFs in the OP. Yes, it's a luxury, which I could skip if need be, but papa likes his gin cold

Multi-fuel camp cooker in DIY gimbal mount
• mobile, to be used in cockpit or galley depending on weather

>>> multi fuel hard to get, get yourself a nice LPG stove and oven,

b.

You mean the stove itself is hard to get (as in: if the one you have dies en route)? ...because obviously the fuel is easy to find: diesel.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Plumbing Systems

Galley Sink

• drains through manual pump to above waterline seacock
• fed by one fresh and one salt water tap (see below)

>>> no, drains by gravitation to a seacock, sink preferably at/close to the center line

That's a needless below the waterline hole in the boat.

>>> salt water tap not too useful in anchorages

You mean oil and other nasties in the water? Well, point taken, but that's yet another reason to anchor OUT, not next to the fuel dock.

Gear
• 1 x Gusher hand pump
• sink
• seacock

>>> hand pump hard to operate over the sink, foot pump easier

Noted. Come to think of it, perhaps they should all be foot pumps - legs are stronger than arms.

Fresh Water Tap in Galley Sink
• 1x100 gallon tank near galley area feeding into day tank above sink
◦ tank to simple charcoal filter to UV reactor to hand pump to day tank
◦ tank access hatch large enough and placed to allow thorough cleaning
◦ vented
◦ no deck fill

>>> no deckfill? where fill?

Rainwater, see the relevant PDF in the OP.

>>> UV reactor not kiss

Neither is dysentery - and UV reactor's pretty simple actually. Trivial amp draw, cheap to start with. Replacing it in an exotic location could be problematic I imagine, but then I could just carry some bleach as a back-up.

>>> tank to daytank not kiss

The water has to get out of the main tank somehow: either to a tap or to a day tank. I don't see one as simpler than the other.

• Tank Cleaning Procedure:
◦ if not already empty, pump out via access hatch using trash pump
◦ disconnect fitting
◦ take tank above decks to clean through access hatch

>>> hard to do with a 100 gallon tank methinks,

A 100 gallon tank would only be ~2ftx2ftx3ft, and not very heavy (empty).

>>> not seen a single pump-out, why holding tank?

Can't do direct discharge close to shore.

Believe me, I don't want a tank of $hit on my boat, but I see no other good option. I ruled out composting heads and buckets for variety of reasons.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

There is an internal frame work. I bolted and glued epoxy saturated wood to the steel frame, not the hull. Then I caulked any cracks and painted again. The space between the "studs", (for lack of the proper nautical term) I filled with polyurathane expanding closed cell foam down to the water line.
On the interrior brite work I used 8 coats of poly urathane. I sanded with 220 between coats on all the interrior wood work ( dont forget to seal the end grain ) This will be my home, dont want any stinky wood finish.

The engine room is sound insulated with fire proof foam, then lined with aluminum sheeting. Looks sharp!

Consider using 3X polurathane glue from one of the big box home improvement stores. Its bullet proof, can be applied to wet or frozen wood and will not ever let go if clamped while curing. Experiment with it, you will be amazed how well this stuff holds. I changed part of the interrior, and destroyed the wood trying to get the glue to let go.

Interesting, thanks Matt.

Do you think insulation is necessary in the Caribbean?

I don;t mean for keeping the heat down, I mean for avoiding condensation.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by gjordan

KISS, you have taken a beating on this thread(or at least your ideas) BUT DONT GIVE UP THE DREAM! I think that you must adjust your ideas to reality. The CFrs on this thread alone, probably add up to a quarter million miles under their keels, and are not giving you bad advice. So much of your simplicity ideas will actually make your life (cruising) much harder, rather than easier. I didnt realize that you are in your early 20s, so you have plenty of time to build experience and skills. Dont be rigid in your ideas. The only thing I disagree with in the advice given to you is electronics. Most of what is being talked about will be obsolete by the time you have rebuilt an old steel boat. When you are near launch time, go looking for electronics. Best of luck to you. _____Grant.

I do plan on getting some experience (courses, crew, bare boat) before I actually get started on my project (which is some years away). Wrt electronics, yes, that makes sense. Thanks G.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Now this kiss boat she has no sails, no standing nor running rigging, nor engine?

No engine

As for the rigging, I haven't decided yet what I want.

I don't envision anything unusual: but it will lean toward cheap and durable rather than high-performance.

[laika]

Good luck man, just don't over think it. Don't let it take you a decade before your boat's in the water.

Ryan