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Old 01-10-2014, 15:25   #106
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
As I said, the lad (or is it lass) should get a solid, inexpensive keel boat in the 25 to 30 foot range, and actually spend some time sailing, cruising and OWNING a cruising sailboat. That's the best way to answer the miriade of questions that goes into finding The Boat.
Some of the best advice in this thread. This past summer was my first year regularly sailing on anything bigger than a 15 footer and the practical things I learned in 1 season of sailing have been absolutely invaluable in planning what I'll be doing with my boat in the future regarding repairs, efficiencies and maintenance.

There is nothing as valuable as actually getting out there and getting real experience. I think the majority of the posters in this thread feel the same way and would not want KISS going down some wrong avenues during a refit, only to find out too late that some of the effort was wasted or misdirected
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Old 01-10-2014, 16:19   #107
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

And speaking of KISS, has anyone mentioned the 5 gallon bucket with a toilet seat to him? Thats what I had on my first three KISS boats.
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Old 01-10-2014, 19:07   #108
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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There are lots of good manual windlasses on the used market. Look for a Weems and Plath or ABI bronze. Or a Seatiger 555. Agreed, the Loframs are too undersized.
Noted, I'll have to check into these used windlasses when the time comes and see what's available.

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Composting heads are the way to go. You can use any sort of dry material. I use coconut husk. Peat is fine. I've heard of some people using dried leaves.
This I'm going to have to research some more. If I could do a composter instead of a $hit tank, that'd be nice. BTW, to the fellow who said my head design was overly complex, the logic of it is to allow for disassembly of pieces of it without spilling..[...]..everywhere. so, if I could avoid the tank altogether, that would be great.

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Get a good windvane. Sheet to tiller is possible, but finicky. Lots of good used vanes out there.
As with the windlass, if I could find a good used one for a reasonable price, that would definitely be my first choice. And then learn sheet to tiller anyway, as a backup for if/when the vane fails.

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In my experience there is nothing like owning a boat for a while to teach you what you really need and want. Chartering or crewing is good, but you won't learn nearly as much. If I were you I'd buy an older, solid keelboat in the 25 to 30 range, and get out there and actually cruise for a while. You'll learn tons more than crewing or scrounging on forums like this .
No argument that this would be helpful, just not sure it's in the budget. We'll see.

Thanks again Mike
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Old 01-10-2014, 19:17   #109
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Audio jacks on many Android tablets are Out only.
Maybe it's just certain models - not really sure, don't have an Android, but I know people do this.

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What is the "some free software" you mention? I think there is none. I have seen only one, it was not free, and its quality was unknown.

If you find a free Android wefax software PLS ping me. I would like one too as I use wefax when crossing.

Cheers,
b.
(free)
Use a dedicated Linux Marine Distribution | Official OpenCPN Homepage

(cheap)
HF Weather Fax Marine Radio Fascimile Decoder App For Android

Other options, google it.
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Old 01-10-2014, 19:26   #110
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

@Everyone

FYI: If I don't specifically respond to your post, that's because someone else already made a similar comment, to which I already responded - or I missed your post, in which case I apologize. Either way, I appreciate that you took the time to respond. Also, I maybe not respond very quickly, but I will respond eventually.

Thanks,
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Old 01-10-2014, 21:53   #111
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Hi there fellow future cruiser.

I've been following along as best I can and I admire all the thought you have put into this. I've been contemplating this off and on for well over 30 years and am getting to the point of actually doing.

If I was 30 years younger and had my current finances I would just get a boat and go, figuring it out along the way. However, I've come too far to abandon what I have built up and don't want to risk everything by going too soon, but it could be within the next 1-3 years if things fall into place.

One plan that my wife and I have is to simply cut back on working to only ~9 months and spend 3 months cruising the Great Lakes on a fairly small boat. Then if we can handle that and want to keep going move up to a larger boat, of steel or aluminum, and leave the lakes behind.

I know how hard it is to spend days, weeks and months (some at sea) running all the options through your head. Then you finally have a plan that sounds reasonable and you share it with someone who has already done it and they completely take it apart. It's very hard to let go of an idea that you have fixed in your brain without some convincing. So I hope the experienced members don't take your reasoning the wrong way, as you didn't come to your original plans without a lot of effort.

I just had this happen while visiting with a couple (family friends) who have been out there cruising and living on the hook for 9 years. It's important to not take it personally. Not only have they lived it, they have also witnessed many of the things tried by others.

They have convinced me that a larger boat than my original plan for an under 30 footer is probably a better choice when we go full time. However, for the part time lake cruising, I think we can still do the small boat. We once lived in a semi truck together for 6 months and survived, so 3 months on a small boat should be OK. (Ideally the small boat will not NEED to be sold for the upgrade when the time is right).

One thought that I have had about your anchor (which seems to be a pretty hot button), wouldn't it be easier (maybe) and perhaps even better (maybe) to have 2 smaller anchors rather than one big one? Just a thought. However, keep in mind that I have very little anchoring experience on a cruising sailboat. Most of the boats I have sailed on were from one marina to another or just day sails/racing and back to the mooring buoy.

I wish you well and am taking in all the advice that is being bestowed upon you from the experienced crowd.
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Old 01-10-2014, 22:00   #112
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

KISS there are always used windvanes on craigslist. Right now they are from $300 to $3000. If you think you are capable of rebuilding an old steel boat, you are certainly capable of rebuilding a windvane. I only look at west coast prices, and I dont know where you are located, but it doesnt hurt to pick up some of the basic gear of cruising, even when you are still in the planning stage. Buying when there is no deadline pressure is better than waiting until you need it yesterday. For the 37 foot steel boat that I cruised for a couple of years, I bought (at a swap meet) a 90lb Northhill anchor as a storm hook. Never once drug it out of the lazzeret. Anchored daily with a 45lb plow. I tried using halyard winches to raise the anchor. What a pain. Bought a manual windlass, and life was easier/simpler. The suggestion to buy a smaller boat and get in some cruising is very,very valid. If you loose a few bucks when you sell it, you will have saved yourself many times that amount in not buying the wrong gear for the next(bigger) boat. You will get there , just dont be too rigid in your thinking. Best of luck. ______Grant.
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Old 02-10-2014, 13:08   #113
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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OK, read through this thread and have to chime in.

1. Most important, get some experience on the water.

I got hooked on sailing from one 2 week trip to the Bahamas; I had zero knowledge or prior experience but immediately knew sailing would be a focus of my future plans. Like you (but certainly on a much more basic, simple level, I immediately started planning my ideal boat. After a few more passages my boat ideas changed dramatically. In some areas 180 degree change. The amount of time and energy planning every minute detail of a boat when you have never used or experienced most of these systems is not totally wasted or pointless but I think you could derive much more benefit at this point in getting out on the water.

2. Anchors. I'll give you my personal experience. I lived on board and cruised for a few years on a 32' boat. We were tied up at a marina in the south Bahamas and got hit with a cold front that came in much faster and stronger than forecast. The marina was exposed to the NE and we had to bail out immediately. The main anchorage was packed but we saw a large, protected bay next door with one large power boat anchored so decided to try that. We dropped anchor 5-6 times in different spots around that bay and could never get the anchor to hold. Turned out to be a few inches of sand over a hard rock bottom. After the 4-5 time hauling the anchor in I realized I was almost at the limits of my strength and could not try several more times. This was as 45 lb CQR with only 25' of chain. I was 30 years old, 6' and 175 lbs and after living on board and cruising for several years I was in the best shape of my life. Your plan to manually handle an anchor double the size with all chain is not practical or safe. Using a halyard winch sounds good in practice but single-handed in an urgent situation with with the wind howling, the bow bouncing, maybe in the dark and your boat ready to drag onto the rocks, forget it. It will be way to slow and awkward and could lose the boat.

3. Paper charts only with no chart plotter. Nothing at all wrong with using good technology as long as you have the ability to deal without it if or when it fails. There were lots of times when a good fix and a chart plotter would have added a great degree of safety and taken my worry level down several notches. Sailing single-handed it's not always possible to go below and plot a lat/lon fix from a basic GPS onto a paper chart. Also, when you're wet and tired and anxious mistakes are easy.

4. Self steering. Sheet to tiller or wheel sounds fairly simple on paper but years ago I spent many hours trying to make it work with limited success. After several passages steering, even with three on board I decided that a good AP or wind vane was the most important piece of hardware on the boat.
Great advice. Heed it. Most importantly, get out on the water in some sort of cruising boat, the things you learn in the first year or two will answer what you need in your long term solution.
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Old 02-10-2014, 14:38   #114
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Great advice. Heed it. Most importantly, get out on the water in some sort of cruising boat, the things you learn in the first year or two will answer what you need in your long term solution.
This one bit I think is the most important of all.

I started out sailing in a similar way to KISS. Had zero sailing or cruising experience, went out for a couple of weeks with some friends and was hooked. So went home and read everything. Pretty soon I could spout specs and data, talk about different rigs and keels, steel vs glass vs wood, etc, etc, etc but still had a sum total of less than 14 days on a sailboat.

So, about a year later I got a chance to crew on a 2 week delivery from the Bahamas back to FL. All of a sudden all this stuff I had been reading started to fall into place and actually make sense. And about 90% of the opinions I had about boats and what I thought I might like in a boat changed, some by a lot.
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Old 02-10-2014, 16:11   #115
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

For your amusement - this happened yesterday - i dropped my pick in a tight anchorage - after a few hours the guy in the boat next me came back in his dinghy - after about 10 minutes he was calling out that i'd anchored on top of him - I reckoned it was close but he could pull his anchor if he needed to, offered to haul in my chain when he wanted to go. That lasted about 5 minutes then he was callling out again - he decided to pull his anchor and move (thats what I normally do if i think someone is too close - but without the whining first) so he hits his winch and by the time the chain is vertical hes still got plenty of room - but now his anchor wont come up - I asked him what kind of anchor it was, he said "a dirty big one", After another round of histrionics he did a full circle around the anchor and it finally came up - looked like a 50kg delta - way too big and way too heavy for his winch once it was dug in. I reckon if he'd tried to pull it up by hand it'd still be there. I didnt bother asking him but I'm willing to bet he replaced a perfectly good and suitable 30kg anchor with that monster and has to do 360's around it every damn time he pulls it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 18:46   #116
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I miss Scoobert. Bulk free entertainment.
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Old 04-10-2014, 17:24   #117
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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s opposed to simply maintaining a proper gravity-fed thru hull. It's supposed to be KISS, but that's a pretty complex system for draining a sink.
First, it's a manual pump, not an electric pump.

Second, a gravity drain requires a below-the-waterline hole in the boat. Avoiding that is well worth the $100 or so for a manual pump.

Quote:
I have not yet met anyone on the water who says "I wish I'd waited longer before setting out". As a young person, you always hear "I wish I'd done it sooner."

All the best to you.

Ryan
I'm not delaying my cruise in order to plan, or save up for gear, etc. I;m delaying my cruise because don't have the money right now, period - for any kind of cruising. And anyway, I'm busy with other things. For the next few years., there's nothing I can do but plan, so that's what I'm going to do.
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Old 04-10-2014, 17:27   #118
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Yes, I do.
That's sad news.

I really wanted to maintain access to the hull, to keep an eye on rust.
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Old 04-10-2014, 17:38   #119
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Wrong, just plain wrong. Reality, based on 35 years pf personal experience, as well as that of hundreds of thousands of sailors says that multiple smaller batteries 1) work just as well; 2) can be replaced if one battery in a bank fails; 3) are better for your helath, i.e., your back; 4) a batttery monitor is a MUST HAVE, whether a Victron or a Smart Gauge
noted

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I agree. Personal experience: Our PO made a big mistake: He plumbed a BIG loop in the galley sink drain to an underwater thru hull, and then took the galley sink drain to the fridge box foot pump. To empty the galley sink one needed to use the foot pump to drain any water out of the sink. This got very tiresome. I even added an electric pump!!! I finally simply plumbed it correctly to the underwater thru hull to drain by KISS: GRAVITY. 1) an above waterline sink drain is nonsense; 2) pumping, even foot pumping is stupid and unnecessary
Putting another hole in the boat below the waterline (just to avoid having to install a $100 pump) is stupid and unnecessary.
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Old 04-10-2014, 17:44   #120
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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If you're looking for a boat which is steel, KISS, and good for cruising I'd recommend you buy Brent Swain's book. You can find it searching under origami boat building. I'm in the middle of a rebuild of a steel boat and I can tell you that it would have been faster to build an origami from scratch. In addition, Brent's boats are a full system design to be simple and inexpensive to build and maintain. This means rig, tankage, engine system, anchoring, etc. They're pretty unique that way, designed by a guy that has lived aboard for about 30 years, crossed the Pacific I think 9 times, has designed a series of boats and has built dozens of them. Buy the DVD from Alex Christie. It shows Brent, mostly working by himself, building a 36 footer in 9 DAYS. That includes hull, decks cabin, cockpit, tanks, wheelhouse, etc all tacked together. If you know anything at all about boatbuilding it is mindblowing watching that video.

I've built a lot of stuff in my life. It's often easier to build it right from scratch than it is to fix a bunch of things that were built wrong.
Yep, I know about Brent Swain, read many of his posts on various forums.

At one point I considered building one of his boats: changed my mind for various reasons.

But, yes, he's also got some interesting ideas about systems.

Planning on buying his book at some point.
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