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Old 28-09-2014, 01:44   #76
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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I've spent a stupid amount of mental energy on the windlass question.

There's only one manual windlass in production, the Lofrans Royal, which looks flimsy to me - and considering the way things are going (everybody wants electric), who knows how long it will remain in production: aka who knows how long I'd be able to find spare parts. There are magnificent bronze beasts out there on Ebay, but, again...availability of spares. That's why I settled on a chain stopper and manual halyard winch in place of a proper anchor windlass. If that proved unworkable, I'd have to go with the Lofrans.
Virtually electric windlases can be operated manually. Buy and electric, leave off the motor and use as manual.

I think you are really underestimating the difficulty of self-steering with sails. This is really an achievement if you can do it (few can).

A final note - I'd advise you to learn to sail and take some shorter passages before you build your KISS boat. You'll find that many of your ideas are simply not practical when exposed to the real world, or you'll find other solutions that are better. (foot pump versus handpump at the sink is an excellent example)
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Old 28-09-2014, 03:40   #77
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

your recorded for posterity now!
keep us updated

What happens to all the wannabees?
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Old 28-09-2014, 06:06   #78
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I agree with the previous poster that suggested you get yourself an older, well-designed, well-founded and simple cruising sailboat and then apply your K.I.S.S. principal to upgrading/repairing/replacing the systems that already exist. You'll save yourself a mountain of headaches and money. There will probably be equipment in place that will serve you just fine to start and if you cruise with it, even just locally, when it goes belly up you will have had the experience to know what you want to replace it with.
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Old 28-09-2014, 06:31   #79
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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(...) Android

(...)

if I'm going to have a tablet anyway (for weatherfax),

(...)
Which App?

I have not seen any free one. I have seen only one for Android, with quality of it unknown.

How are you going to lead the signal from SSB to a tablet?

Let me know, I would like one too for our tablet.

BTW If you have charts on a tablet, they will soon become your primary. They are way easier faster and more intuitive to use than paper charts. And easier to read in the dark. Let alone the fact that nothing plots itself on a paper chart while it does so on the electronic one.

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Old 28-09-2014, 07:47   #80
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

OK, read through this thread and have to chime in.

1. Most important, get some experience on the water.

I got hooked on sailing from one 2 week trip to the Bahamas; I had zero knowledge or prior experience but immediately knew sailing would be a focus of my future plans. Like you (but certainly on a much more basic, simple level, I immediately started planning my ideal boat. After a few more passages my boat ideas changed dramatically. In some areas 180 degree change. The amount of time and energy planning every minute detail of a boat when you have never used or experienced most of these systems is not totally wasted or pointless but I think you could derive much more benefit at this point in getting out on the water.

2. Anchors. I'll give you my personal experience. I lived on board and cruised for a few years on a 32' boat. We were tied up at a marina in the south Bahamas and got hit with a cold front that came in much faster and stronger than forecast. The marina was exposed to the NE and we had to bail out immediately. The main anchorage was packed but we saw a large, protected bay next door with one large power boat anchored so decided to try that. We dropped anchor 5-6 times in different spots around that bay and could never get the anchor to hold. Turned out to be a few inches of sand over a hard rock bottom. After the 4-5 time hauling the anchor in I realized I was almost at the limits of my strength and could not try several more times. This was as 45 lb CQR with only 25' of chain. I was 30 years old, 6' and 175 lbs and after living on board and cruising for several years I was in the best shape of my life. Your plan to manually handle an anchor double the size with all chain is not practical or safe. Using a halyard winch sounds good in practice but single-handed in an urgent situation with with the wind howling, the bow bouncing, maybe in the dark and your boat ready to drag onto the rocks, forget it. It will be way to slow and awkward and could lose the boat.

3. Paper charts only with no chart plotter. Nothing at all wrong with using good technology as long as you have the ability to deal without it if or when it fails. There were lots of times when a good fix and a chart plotter would have added a great degree of safety and taken my worry level down several notches. Sailing single-handed it's not always possible to go below and plot a lat/lon fix from a basic GPS onto a paper chart. Also, when you're wet and tired and anxious mistakes are easy.

4. Self steering. Sheet to tiller or wheel sounds fairly simple on paper but years ago I spent many hours trying to make it work with limited success. After several passages steering, even with three on board I decided that a good AP or wind vane was the most important piece of hardware on the boat.
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Old 28-09-2014, 10:40   #81
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Which App?

I have not seen any free one. I have seen only one for Android, with quality of it unknown.
Not free, but cheap - the Navionics charts for Android. I forget off the top of my head (google it), but the price for a whole regional folio (e.g. the entire Caribbean) is something like $50.

Quote:
How are you going to lead the signal from SSB to a tablet?
Audio jack out on radio --> audio jack in on the tablet. Then you need some free software on the tablet to translate the signal into something usable.
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Old 28-09-2014, 13:15   #82
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

A truly KISS boat does not have sails, they are not simple at all.
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Old 28-09-2014, 14:16   #83
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Plumbing: composting head is better and much more kiss. The system you have outlined is crazy complex.
How much peat moss (or whatever) do you have to use? I don't want to be reliant on some specialty product that I can only find in the States. That was the primary reason I wrote off the composting head.

Quote:
Emergency gear: manual bilge pumps are unreliable. Have an electric pump too. They are cheap and reliable.
No electric or manual bilge pump can handle serious flooding, not enough GPM. That's why I have a 2" trash pump listed in the emergency gear. That's for when a seacock fails or the hull gets punctured. The manual pump I listed is just for routine bilge water, as from condensation, spilling my beers, etc. If it fails, no big deal.

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Energy storage: multiple batteries is more kiss than one large. If you get a bad battery/cell you can drop one out and still have power.
A good point. On the other hand, though, a single battery is likely to be more efficient (bad batteries vampirize good batteries).
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Old 28-09-2014, 14:19   #84
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Virtually electric windlases can be operated manually. Buy and electric, leave off the motor and use as manual.
I realize that most electrics can be worked manually in a pinch, but can they really be used manually, day after day - considering that's not what they were designed for? I hope so, that would solve my problem, since there are tons of electrics on the market to choose from.
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Old 28-09-2014, 14:20   #85
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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your recorded for posterity now!
keep us updated

What happens to all the wannabees?
Will do. I'm not going anywhere.
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Old 28-09-2014, 14:23   #86
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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I agree with the previous poster that suggested you get yourself an older, well-designed, well-founded and simple cruising sailboat and then apply your K.I.S.S. principal to upgrading/repairing/replacing the systems that already exist. You'll save yourself a mountain of headaches and money. There will probably be equipment in place that will serve you just fine to start and if you cruise with it, even just locally, when it goes belly up you will have had the experience to know what you want to replace it with.
Rather than buying a boat to play around with the systems, then selling it at a loss, and buying another boat that I actually like - I'd rather plan out the systems in advance, with personal experience from lessons, crewing, and bare boating, and then buy the right boat to start with.
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Old 28-09-2014, 14:54   #87
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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I realize that most electrics can be worked manually in a pinch, but can they really be used manually, day after day - considering that's not what they were designed for? I hope so, that would solve my problem, since there are tons of electrics on the market to choose from.
There are lots of good manual windlasses on the used market. Look for a Weems and Plath or ABI bronze. Or a Seatiger 555. Agreed, the Loframs are too undersized.

Composting heads are the way to go. You can use any sort of dry material. I use coconut husk. Peat is fine. I've heard of some people using dried leaves.

Get a good windvane. Sheet to tiller is possible, but finicky. Lots of good used vanes out there.

In my experience there is nothing like owning a boat for a while to teach you what you really need and want. Chartering or crewing is good, but you won't learn nearly as much. If I were you I'd buy an older, solid keelboat in the 25 to 30 range, and get out there and actually cruise for a while. You'll learn tons more than crewing or scrounging on forums like this .
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Old 28-09-2014, 15:52   #88
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Not free, but cheap - the Navionics charts for Android. I forget off the top of my head (google it), but the price for a whole regional folio (e.g. the entire Caribbean) is something like $50.



Audio jack out on radio --> audio jack in on the tablet. Then you need some free software on the tablet to translate the signal into something usable.
Audio jacks on many Android tablets are Out only.

What is the "some free software" you mention? I think there is none. I have seen only one, it was not free, and its quality was unknown.

If you find a free Android wefax software PLS ping me. I would like one too as I use wefax when crossing.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 28-09-2014, 15:57   #89
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I confess, I have not read through your entire thread, but I think I get the gist of it. I am performing a complete refit, including repower on my vessel, and this is not my first time at this. At this point, I would not be thinking about what type of electronics to plan on, what I would be planning is where each of the systems are going to placed in the vessel, then plan your service chases so that the wiring, plumbing, etc have a clear run with ample room for expansion and the straightest shortest runs possible. Have an alternative method of operating or a back up if any of the main systems fail. As far as your ground tackle goes, you are a long way from needing to worry about that, do plan on oversize, generally 2 sizes larger than recommended, and at least a hundred feet of comparable high test galvanized chain, with another hundred feet of line. Do have a power windlass that can be used easily in a manual mode. Carrying a 90lb weight up and down a flight of stairs is no way comparable to trying to hoist an anchor over the bow in any kind of sea condition, your body mechanics are out of position and you are on an unstable platform, you can really screw up your back. It also pays to remember that you may not be your strongest self when you have to weigh anchor. After you have been at sea for a time you can get quite fatigued if you are not good at managing your strength. If you build a solid foundation of good systems under you then you will be able to overcome about any obstacle. Do plan it out, do make drawings for all your systems, do have a back up plan for any one of them that fail, they usually do at the worst time. Do plan to have spares for the most crucial systems. Do look at how you will gain access to those systems in rough weather at night. Don't look at it on a sunny day, look at it from a 0300 in the middle of the worst weather you have ever seen and you have been throwing up for 3 days straight, scenario. Once you find the vessel you are going to call home, I will help you all that I am able.
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Old 28-09-2014, 18:26   #90
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
In my experience there is nothing like owning a boat for a while to teach you what you really need and want. Chartering or crewing is good, but you won't learn nearly as much. If I were you I'd buy an older, solid keelboat in the 25 to 30 range, and get out there and actually cruise for a while. You'll learn tons more than crewing or scrounging on forums like this .
+1

Respectfully man, I think you're off on all counts of the standard KISS mantra 'go small, go simple, go now'.. of which, being young, 'go now' seems most important. I think you've lost the 'go simple' part by overthinking it.

Case in point, you propose an above the waterline galley sink drain via electric pump as opposed to simply maintaining a proper gravity-fed thru hull. It's supposed to be KISS, but that's a pretty complex system for draining a sink.

There are tons of proven good old boats that can be had for very little money. Boatyards and marinas are full of them everywhere here in the US. If you really want to cruise, dont wait 10 years before putting a boat in the water. Walk around some marina/yards and try to get invited aboard. Get out sailing a couple times. Then buy one, get to know her, and proceed to worry about the important stuff like where to find cold beer and how to keep the cruising kitty full.

I have not yet met anyone on the water who says "I wish I'd waited longer before setting out". As a young person, you always hear "I wish I'd done it sooner."

All the best to you.

Ryan
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