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Old 26-09-2014, 04:48   #46
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Originally Posted by KISS View Post
A handheld GPS is a little chartplotter, yes, but I don't want a handheld GPS.

I just want my latitude and longitude to plot on a paper map, which is provided on the screen of my mounted VHF radio (which has built in GPS).

Why? Because a paper map cannot malfunction.

It requires no maintenance.

It draws no amps.

It cannot have compatibility issues with other devices.

KISS
I dont get why you would not want a chartplotter even as a backup, You mention you will have a tablet for multiple uses.
You can get Navionics for that for a whopping $15 and id say you would use it when it came down to it.
Id also re think your idea of crossing even 10 days (you mention 35) with no autopilot and just using the sail, good luck.
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Old 26-09-2014, 05:41   #47
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I would say that using your sails for steering can be done. This does, however, require an unusually skilled sailor.

Look around - damn few (even very experienced sailors) are doing this. they usually have a windvane (or autopilot).

Difficult to learn and very difficult to get right and keep right on long passages.

700' of rode for when you want to anchor at depths of 100'? Hmmm I suspect you'll find you won't be doing this very often. I would also suggest that even though you may be able to lift the extra sections of chain and carry them, hooking them together will be entertaining if the deck is heaving. Not to mention that trying to haul up 700 feet of chain? By hand?
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Old 26-09-2014, 06:52   #48
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Hi KISS, and welcome. I'd suggest you get acquainted with the various frugal cruising threads ($500/month) if you haven't already. Lots of good ideas have been tossed around.

I've scanned some of your PDFs, and it's obvious you've put a lot of thought into it all. I wonder how much actual sailing and cruising you've done yet. Nothing like actual experience to learn what one really needs.

I agree your anchor system is overkill. Nothing particularly wrong with that, as long as it remains manageable. Without a windlass hauling a 88# anchor with all-chain from any depth is going to be a Hurculean undertaking. My suggestion is to add a good manual windlass to your system, and drop a size or two for your bower anchor. FYI, our 37', 28,000# full keeler has a 55# Rocna as our bower, with 250' of 3/8" all chain. This has never failed to hold us through some mighty blows. Also carry an assortment of additional anchors, including a monster Fortress, but the bower holds us 98% of the time with never a problem. And we too anchor out almost all the time.

In looking at your lists it seems in some places you've focused on the KISS side, but in other areas like collision avoidance you've gone all-in with the fancy technology. Nothing wrong with that, but I do wonder if you've sorted the needs from the wants. I know I still struggle with this.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get lots of comments. It might be a more focused discussion if you break each section into a new thread. But have fun, and don't let the naysayers drag you down.


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Old 26-09-2014, 10:41   #49
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

KISS, Mike Oreillys comments about a manual windlass should be paid attention to. I like big ground tackle, but your ideas are way overkill, and thinking you can use your back to get the weight up will leave you in dangerous situations if everything doesnt go perfectly. Rarely does anything go perfectly all of the time. My first cruising boat came with all chain, and no windlass. On my first coastal cruise, I pulled a musele in my back, and was stuck in an anchorage for several days waiting for the pain to let up. That boat was much smaller than what you are proposing. I installed a windlass as soon as I could afford it. I later removed the diesel from the boat and went on to cruise many thousands of miles, but The combination of no engine, and no windlass will handicap you many times, and could cost you your boat. On another note, there have been successful cruises with sheet to tiller steering, but again, why handicap yourself? If you think you can completely rebuild an older steel boat, then you can rebuild a used windvane. There is an Aries for sale in Morro Bay for sale for $300. I bought (my third ) one recently for $700, and there is an unused monitor for sale for $1700. You have stated that you have never sailed before, but think you can cruise single handed and engineless, with sheet to tiller steering (a rather difficult process), instead of spending a few hundred or even a couple of thousand for the most valuable piece of gear that can be bolted onto a boat shows that you are reading the romantic books, not the nuts and bolts books about cruising. Remember that Joshua Slocum and Bernard Moitesier had many years of sailing experience before they went RTW without a self steering device. Someone before me said "get some experience on OPs boats". That is the most valuable information on this thread. My first cruising boat was purchase by a guy who had never sailed before, but had read all of the books, and done a very good job of having it outfitted. It had a big plow,all chain rode, diesel, storm sails, windvane, Avon dinghy, etc, etc. He spent years planning, and took a knock down on another persons boat, and never sailed again. He never got his dream boat out of San Francisco Bay. My next cruising boat was built by a dreamer (out of steel) that had little or no sailing experience. He spent years and much money, and left single handed from Canada to England. He got 3 days out and hit a storm, turned around and went back to the coast and entered the first harbor he could find, tied up to the first dock he could find, and told the first broker he could find to sell it. I was told he didnt even go back on board. I did about 12 thousand miles on those 2 boats and had a great time. Someone else had spent the big bucks, and I got the pleasure. Get some serious sailing in before you spend years of your life, all of your money, and all of your dreams, for something you may or may not like. I am not at all opposed to keeping things simple, but not to the point that you handicap your safety, your ability to get where you want to go, and your ability to get enough rest by thinking sheet to tiller will work reliably. I think you get the point. _____Grant.
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Old 26-09-2014, 11:39   #50
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

You can't.

You do not have a KISS mindset in the first place. It all starts right up there. You made it complicated even before you got the boat.

Avoid pdf files. Some posters may find them hard to edit. Some posters may find them hard to access.

Avoid long text. Some posters may find it to thick to follow. Get one answer at a time.

My advice is:

- keep individual systems small - smaller systems, less load, less equipment, more substitution options, etc.


- do not get any all-in-ones. Get one-system-for-one-purpose.

- prefer manual over mechanical and mechanical over electrical / hydraulic.

EXAMPLE: from some size up, you will have no choice but go for an anchor winch. Chose the size that does not call for one. BUT if you do opt for the bigger boat, stick with a manual winch AND if you cannot, then prefer an electric winch over a hydraulic one.

Etc.

Simplicity is real simple.

b.
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Old 26-09-2014, 12:14   #51
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Navigation Systems

paper maps (Imray)
• kept at navigation station

>>> a simple plotter seems simpler than a paper chart,

GPS for coordinates only (displayed on mounted VHF with built in GPS)
• kept at navigation station

>>> you lose the vhf = you lose gps, stupid
>>> get one system for each job,

Compass
• kept at navigation station

>>> I think you want the compass in the cockpit

depth finder, through hull, standalone display
• kept at navigation station

>>> no, again, in the cockpit

SSB receiver plugged into tablet with decoding software for weatherfax reports globally
• kept at navigation station

>>> wefax is not a global system,
>>> I would use radio / phone inshore,

Where is your nav station? In the cockpit? Then you are right.

What happened to you speedo?

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Old 26-09-2014, 12:26   #52
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Anchoring System

Primary/Storm Anchor
• best all around holding = Rocna

>>> are you going to anchor in best all round bottoms only?

• heaviest I can move safely = #88 (tested)

>>> it is not in the weight,

• stowed in bow locker when not deployed

>>> it is difficult to move an 88 anchor out of a locker,

• raised/lowered by hand through chain stopper and/or by halyard winch hook/re-hook method

>>> not likely with this anchor

• want 7:1 scope in 100', so 700' rode

>>> that's plenty

• all chain rode for strength and chafe protection

>>> up to you,

• some chain to be stowed permanently in bow for regular use = 200' (~7:1 scope at 30')

>>> your boat,

• rest needs to be cut in sections stowed below decks weighing no more than #90 each

>>> up to you,

• #90 of Ό G70 chain = 115'

>>> as per relevant tables,

• So, 5x100' sections stowed below

>>> that's plenty of load,

First Spare (to fully replace primary sans storm duty)

• best all around holding = Rocna

>>> no, you already have a Rocna there,

• one size larger than recommended = #55

>>> more weight, sure you have enough displacement left to take some water and food?

• stowed in stern locker when not deployed

>>> up to you, in our boat we keep No 2. on the deck ready to be deployed any time,

• raised/lowered by hand through chain stopper

>>> it is a heavy beast, plus chain ...

• 50' Ό G70 chain and 150' rope (7:1 at 30')

>>> your boat,

Second Spare

• cheapest, lightest, most easily stowable for recommended holding power = Danforth 16lbs

>>> we have one Danforth, I do not find it easy to stow,

• 50' Ό G70, 150' rope (7:1 at 30')

>>> I can hear you,

• stowed below

>>> well,

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Old 26-09-2014, 12:33   #53
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Collision Avoidance Systems

Radar with alarm capable of reliably warning at 6 miles (10 minutes for 30+6 mph combined approach)

>>> depends, not really a must in the West Indies,

• stand alone unit with display
• Fununo 1623
• kept at navigation station

AIS transponder with alarm capable of reliably warning at 6 miles

>>> Depends, not really a must in the West Indies,

• stand alone unit with display
• Vesper Marine WatchMate 850
• kept at navigation station

Active X/S radar reflector/detector with alarm

>>> Not necessary, if radar present.
>>> They do not reflect detect Broadband, or do they?

• stand alone unit, no display required
• Echomax Active XS

Several very bright lights up high

>>> no, just as required by COLREGS, and NOT too strong either.

Anchor alarm
• tablet app

>>> most gps units have something.

depth alarm
• feature of stand alone depth finder

>>> it is.

General remark collision avoidance: beware high risk of colliding with other boats anchored nearby, especially if they are French.

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Old 26-09-2014, 12:37   #54
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Communication Systems

Mounted VHF transceiver
• kept at navigation station

>>> I would get a handheld dsc model too. Extra piece of safety equipment and very handy when steering and talking. Also usable for the guy in the dink.

SSB receiver for news
• kept at navigation station
Tablet for internet (when free wireless available)

>>> a FM radio will do.

General remark: no mobile phone on your list of comms? A smartphone gives you a backup for the tablet. Get one.

b.
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Old 26-09-2014, 12:42   #55
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

oops, looks like KISS has had his full e-sailing experience and moved on to something else
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Old 26-09-2014, 12:50   #56
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Engels 40 quart vertical fixed fridge

>>> make sure you have enough charging capacity (heaps) and enough battery storage to run this fridge, you can get everything fresh in the West Indies, a fridge is an optional extra,

Multi-fuel camp cooker in DIY gimbal mount
• mobile, to be used in cockpit or galley depending on weather

>>> multi fuel hard to get, get yourself a nice LPG stove and oven,

Oooops, lost this post once already.

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Old 26-09-2014, 13:00   #57
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Plumbing Systems

Galley Sink

• drains through manual pump to above waterline seacock
• fed by one fresh and one salt water tap (see below)

>>> no, drains by gravitation to a seacock, sink preferably at/close to the center line,

>>> salt water tap not too useful in anchorages,

Gear
• 1 x Gusher hand pump
• sink
• seacock

>>> hand pump hard to operate over the sink, foot pump easier,

Fresh Water Tap in Galley Sink
• 1x100 gallon tank near galley area feeding into day tank above sink
◦ tank to simple charcoal filter to UV reactor to hand pump to day tank
◦ tank access hatch large enough and placed to allow thorough cleaning
◦ vented
◦ no deck fill

>>> no deckfill? where fill?
>>> 100 gallons hard to find in most boats of your preferred size,
>>> UV reactor not kiss,
>>> tank to daytank not kiss,

• Tank Cleaning Procedure:
◦ if not already empty, pump out via access hatch using trash pump
◦ disconnect fitting
◦ take tank above decks to clean through access hatch

>>> hard to do with a 100 gallon tank methinks,

Gear
• 1x 100 gallon Ronco tank
• 1x Ronco 6” access hatch
• 1x Gusher hand pump
• 1x 3 gallon day tanks Ronco
• 1x charcoal filter
• 1x UV reactors Cristal Quest
Salt Water Tap in Galley
• day tank filled above decks with spigot into sink
Gear
• 1x 3 gallon day tanks Ronco
Head
• salt water intake to manual head
• head to valve to top of holding tank
holding tank for 7 days = 30 gallons
▪ .375 gallons per flush, 10 flushes per day, plus ½ gallon waste
inspection port directly above outlet so can unclog manually
• holding tank well above waterline
• vent in holding tank leading straight up to deck/roof
• no deck pump out
◦ no need to ever pump out, just dump offshore
• outlet from bottom of holding tank to valve to seacock
• gravity drains to below waterline through-hull
Use Procedure:
• open salt water intake
• open valve at holding take inlet
• use and flush
• closed seacock and valve
• To empty holding tank: open valve at tank outlet and seacock and gravity drain
• if clogged check inspection port
• can flush entire system using head pump with all valves open
Gear
• manual head, Johnson compact
• holding tank Ronco 30 gallon
• Ronco 6” access hatch
• 1x 1.5” seacock (black out)
• 1x Ύ” seacock (salt in)
Head Sink
• day tank from the deck with spigot into sink
• sink to hand pump to above waterline seacock
Gear
• 1x 3 gallon day tank Ronco
• Gusher hand pump
• seacock
• sink
Shower
• solar bag used in cockpit with removable privacy curtains
Laundry bucket
Through-hull summary:
• 1 below waterline black water out for head
• 1 below waterline salt water in for head
• 2 gray water out above waterline for sinks

>>> plenty of gear, not truly kiss
>>> not seen a single pump-out, why holding tank?
>>> holding tanks not kiss,

Etc.

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Old 26-09-2014, 13:01   #58
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by KISS View Post
Well, you're still kicking, so I won't write-off DIY sandblasting just yet.

How did you attach the wood framing to the steel shell?

Tabs or direct to shell?

If tabs, how do you attach the tab to the beam? Braces as they do with wood-wood connections, some kind of glue?

O, and what did you coat your floor beams with? I was thinking "boat soup" for mine (the original waterproofing: turpentine, linseed oil, pine tar). Supposedly, it's not as impermeable, but soaks deep into the wood and let's it breath - so no worries about a little scratch in the coating. And no sanding it off and recoating when it wears off, just slap on some more. Course, it may not suit one's visual (or olfactory) tastes.

Congratulations!

There is an internal frame work. I bolted and glued epoxy saturated wood to the steel frame, not the hull. Then I caulked any cracks and painted again. The space between the "studs", (for lack of the proper nautical term) I filled with polyurathane expanding closed cell foam down to the water line.
On the interrior brite work I used 8 coats of poly urathane. I sanded with 220 between coats on all the interrior wood work ( dont forget to seal the end grain ) This will be my home, dont want any stinky wood finish.

The engine room is sound insulated with fire proof foam, then lined with aluminum sheeting. Looks sharp!

Consider using 3X polurathane glue from one of the big box home improvement stores. Its bullet proof, can be applied to wet or frozen wood and will not ever let go if clamped while curing. Experiment with it, you will be amazed how well this stuff holds. I changed part of the interrior, and destroyed the wood trying to get the glue to let go.

Thanks! Little Sloane is due the last week of this month. My other kids are 22 and 24 years old....I removed the scuba / rebreather rack and build in a crib...
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Old 26-09-2014, 13:08   #59
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Now this kiss boat she has no sails, no standing nor running rigging, nor engine?

The systems you mention all fine but kiss starts with hull and rig choices, sail choices and steering and engine choices. Maybe next are electrical choices that dictate many other choices like aux nav equipment, plumbing and comms.

Start at the hard core: hull, rig, sails and engine. Then decide on aux power and electrics. Then decide on other systems.

At times you will find that you get more kiss with more technologically advanced solutions. Not a rule to worship but something worth remembering when chosing your outfit.

Have fun splitting hairs. Meanwhile we are gone sailing.

Cheers,
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Old 26-09-2014, 21:08   #60
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

KISS, you have taken a beating on this thread(or at least your ideas) BUT DONT GIVE UP THE DREAM! I think that you must adjust your ideas to reality. The CFrs on this thread alone, probably add up to a quarter million miles under their keels, and are not giving you bad advice. So much of your simplicity ideas will actually make your life (cruising) much harder, rather than easier. I didnt realize that you are in your early 20s, so you have plenty of time to build experience and skills. Dont be rigid in your ideas. The only thing I disagree with in the advice given to you is electronics. Most of what is being talked about will be obsolete by the time you have rebuilt an old steel boat. When you are near launch time, go looking for electronics. Best of luck to you. _____Grant.
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