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Old 25-09-2014, 16:34   #31
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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In writing it came to me how much cockpit layout is important to me.

Here are the plans for my Murray 33. Unlike this picture in mine the wheel has been pushed right up against the bridge deck.

Having that proximity to the cabin makes having instruments inside possible. It also helps keep me protected behind the dodger.

But remember this, to date most of my sailing is above 45N.
Right, I won't have to worry much about protection from the elements in the Caribbean - other than sun protective clothing. I like the idea of having the wheel close to he cabin for the reason you state, but I lean heavily toward a tiller - fewer moving parts. Plus I can (in principle) steer by sail with the tiller; don't think that can be done with a wheel.
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:55   #32
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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I'll add it to the list (...there a lot of books on my list).

So far I've trying been trying to get by mostly on free information.
And, just to include the obvious, you'll get out of it what you put into it. I think the reason they still MAKE BOOKS (whether online or in print) is that they get EDITED and the information is usually pretty well vetted. The authors have spent a lot of time learning. Of course, that doesn't preclude getting free information, and there are a handful of websites that include a LOT of pertinent information, like Evans & Beth, Lin & Larry and others, who can be trusted.

Good luck, but invest wisely.
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:58   #33
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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...Plus I can (in principle) steer by sail with the tiller; don't think that can be done with a wheel.
Sure it can. Either use the BOTTOM of the wheel as if it was a tiller (with blocks at the coamings) OR add a drum at the wheel.

The major difficulty with larger boats is that they usually have the mainsheet on the cabintop, which makes mainsheet to the steering mechanism more difficult, and requires jib sheet to steering, rather than mainsheet to steering.
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:00   #34
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I admire your enthusiasm but I have some reservations about your approach – If there was one piece of advice i'd offer it's this – instead of trying to design and rebuild the ideal boat from scratch, look at buying an older, simpler but well designed boat and put your energy into testing the existing systems on it and modifying/improving them as you gain experience in actually using the boat. The sea is a brutally unforgiving tester of theories and you've already said enough in your posts to show that you run the risk of putting an enormous amount of time/energy/money into re-inventing the wheel – one person doesnt have enough time in their life to do that with boats.
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:03   #35
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Sure it can. Either use the BOTTOM of the wheel as if it was a tiller (with blocks at the coamings) OR add a drum at the wheel.
Good to know, but I still prefer the technical simplicity of the tiller.
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:05   #36
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Suppose I move the radar to the helm, to see those obstacles.

Still need a chartplotter in your opinion?
A handheld GPS with charts IS a chartplotter, with just a smaller screen. Dagnabbit, I have NO idea why people miss this simple fact. A chartplotter doesn't have to have a 55 inch widescreen.

From one of my friend's evaluations of their trip from Vancouver, BC to Mexico a few years ago.

Total distance 1503 miles

We've now travelled 1500 miles, mostly on open ocean. It's probably worth reporting on how things are working out from the perspective of upgrades and improvements which are always of interest on the forum.

Things that we love and are very happy that we did:


- new chartplotter with radar and AIS - large 8 inch screen on a bracket at the companionway. This is the perfect position for the instrument. Weekend sailing, you stand behind the wheel. Doing serious miles, you relax more comfortably in the cockpit and you can't see instruments behind the wheel. AIS is amazing. I thought it was poor mans radar, but it is much better than radar if you are trying to figure out what a vessel is up to (speed, direction, position, closest approach, vessel name and MMSI number right there for you). And best of all, the whole thing folds into the companionway so we don't worry about expensive electronics being left outside.
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:11   #37
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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A handheld GPS with charts IS a chartplotter, with just a smaller screen. Dagnabbit, I have NO idea why people miss this simple fact. A chartplotter doesn't have to have a 55 inch widescreen.
A handheld GPS is a little chartplotter, yes, but I don't want a handheld GPS.

I just want my latitude and longitude to plot on a paper map, which is provided on the screen of my mounted VHF radio (which has built in GPS).

Why? Because a paper map cannot malfunction.

It requires no maintenance.

It draws no amps.

It cannot have compatibility issues with other devices.

KISS
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Old 25-09-2014, 17:12   #38
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Unlike this picture in mine the wheel has been pushed right up against the bridge deck.

Having that proximity to the cabin makes having instruments inside possible. It also helps keep me protected behind the dodger.

But remember this, to date most of my sailing is above 45N.
An AFT head is sooooo much more preferable. It's closer to the companionway, and it is closer to the center of gravity of the whole boat, a less bouncing when using it. That's why they put galleys there, too, right?

Be careful about the location of a forward wheel. It sounds beneficial, BUT (there's always a BUT when it comes to boating compromises, right?)

1. It has to be far enough aft to make getting in and out of the companionway easy

2. It then makes the useable area of the cockpit further aft and further from the dodger

In my last post I quoted a friend of mine's experiences, which mentioned that when sailing the aft wheel was hardly ever used, which means that the BEST (oh, how I hate that word when it comes to boating!) place to "hang out when moving" is the FORWARD portion of the cockpit.

Think it through before you decide, that's all I'm sayin'.

Good luck.
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Old 25-09-2014, 18:34   #39
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Understood Stu.

In this boat I have a wide bridge deck, so the wheel supports actually double as hand grabs for getting in and out. And I tend to sit in the companionway and sorta steer the wheel behind my back, under the dodger.

But these are peculiarities of this boat and this sailor. I agree with much of your post, especially about having electronics inside yet available.
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Old 26-09-2014, 01:07   #40
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Originally Posted by KISS View Post
.

Why? Because a paper map cannot malfunction.

It requires no maintenance.

It draws no amps.

It cannot have compatibility issues with other devices.

KISS
All true... but they can blow overboard, get wet and soggy and deteriorate, become outdated, be eaten by insects, used for nest material by mice/rats, burn, and so on.

We still carry paper charts by choice, but do most of our navigation and piloting by OCPN and CM93, on an elderly laptop.

If you extend the KISS principle a bit, the possibility of error introduction between seeing coordinates on a screen and plotting them accurately on a chart with a lot of boat motion and operator fatigue seems pretty evident. Simple is looking at a screen with all of that done by a faithful servant in a black box. I post this having come from a celestial only background, so I'm not a technology uber alles type,

So, KISS, I'm left with some curiosity: how many of these techniques and devices have you ever used in anger? Like on a real boat out at sea? My inquiring mind would like to know.

Jim
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Old 26-09-2014, 01:56   #41
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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All true... but they can blow overboard, get wet and soggy and deteriorate, become outdated, be eaten by insects, used for nest material by mice/rats, burn, and so on.

We still carry paper charts by choice, but do most of our navigation and piloting by OCPN and CM93, on an elderly laptop.
Yes, nothing's unbreakable, but which is more likely to fail, the laminated paper chart or the laptop?

Quote:
If you extend the KISS principle a bit, the possibility of error introduction between seeing coordinates on a screen and plotting them accurately on a chart with a lot of boat motion and operator fatigue seems pretty evident. Simple is looking at a screen with all of that done by a faithful servant in a black box. I post this having come from a celestial only background, so I'm not a technology uber alles type,
That's not the kind of simplicity I'm after. I'll always take the reliable, low maintenance, but labor-intensive method over the unreliable, high maintenance, labor-saving method. I want to maximize the amount of time sailing the boat or otherwise enjoying myself, and minimize the amount of time (and money) spent repairing broken systems.

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So, KISS, I'm left with some curiosity: how many of these techniques and devices have you ever used in anger? Like on a real boat out at sea? My inquiring mind would like to know.
None, as I said in my introductory post; I have virtually no sailing experience. I can, however, read about the experiences of others, and apply some common sense. You don't need to have sailed for a single afternoon to know that electronics are more prone to failure than paper charts; or that people have been successfully navigating with paper charts forever (and are doing so as we speak).
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Old 26-09-2014, 02:17   #42
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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None, as I said in my introductory post; I have virtually no sailing experience. I can, however, read about the experiences of others, and apply some common sense. You don't need to have sailed for a single afternoon to know that electronics are more prone to failure than paper charts; or that people have been successfully navigating with paper charts forever.
Yes, people have been navigating successfully with paper charts "forever"... and it is equally true that people have been UNsuccessfully navigating with paper charts during much of that time. The number of ships come to grief due to nav errors is large... how many of those events could have been avoided by modern charting methods will never be known,

I might even agree that electronics are more prone to failure than paper charts, but people are pretty fallible too. My point is that when tired, seasick and scared, the mechanics of plotting under duress become difficult. And, after all, if you have paper charts on board and the laptop dies, well, you still have the same paper charts to plot upon. Oh... you did say that you would have a GPS, didn't you, and no sextant and associated gear for celestial nav for when that electronic GPS/VHF dies, didn't you?

Look, I don't want to get into arguments like this, but we often get posters here on CF who have read extensively and made great plans based on that reading. But, they lack the experience to interpret the reading very well. They get ideas, similar to your proposed anchoring gear, that are just not realistic in terms of practical cruising.

Your research skills sound pretty good, but IMO a few passages on OPB might do you more good than more trips to the library. All too often, dreams like yours die before launching. I'd like to see you succeed...

Jim
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Old 26-09-2014, 02:29   #43
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Yes, people have been navigating successfully with paper charts "forever"... and it is equally true that people have been UNsuccessfully navigating with paper charts during much of that time. The number of ships come to grief due to nav errors is large... how many of those events could have been avoided by modern charting methods will never be known,

I might even agree that electronics are more prone to failure than paper charts, but people are pretty fallible too. My point is that when tired, seasick and scared, the mechanics of plotting under duress become difficult.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's going to vary by person anyway: just as some people can manage an Xlbs anchor without falling on their face, and some cannot. I'll give paper charts a try, and we shall see if I'm one of those who can manage it.

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Oh... you did say that you would have a GPS, didn't you,
Yes

Quote:
and no sextant and associated gear for celestial nav for when that electronic GPS/VHF dies, didn't you?
See "Emergency Gear" - I have a sextant and tables listed

Quote:
Look, I don't want to get into arguments like this, but we often get posters here on CF who have read extensively and made great plans based on that reading. But, they lack the experience to interpret the reading very well. They get ideas, similar to your proposed anchoring gear, that are just not realistic in terms of practical cruising.
Why specifically is the ground tackle idea unrealistic? With all due respect, saying something like "I have experience, I would know" is neither convincing nor helpful.

With the ground tackle I have in mind, I could keep as little as #88 in the bow - all the chain could be kept below if I wanted. Surely that wouldn't be too heavy in the bow? Does anyone here with a ~35 footer have less than that in the bow? I kindly doubt it.

As for all that chain down in the guts of the boat somewhere...I don't see how that weight (700', 539lbs) could be a problem, as it would be offset by not having an engine, not having fuel tanks, and only carrying one person and stores for one person. Am I really going to be too heavy overall?

If not, what's the problem?

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind about any aspect of my plan (that's why I posted it), but I need some kind of reason: not just, "trust me, I'm experienced." Especially when you consider that there are experienced sailors on the opposite sides of just about every issue.
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Old 26-09-2014, 03:37   #44
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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<SNIP>

I'm perfectly willing to change my mind about any aspect of my plan (that's why I posted it), but I need some kind of reason: not just, "trust me, I'm experienced." Especially when you consider that there are experienced sailors on the opposite sides of just about every issue.
Not to be flippant here, but how do you know you will even like to enjoy boats or sailing if you haven't done any yet? In addition to boats I also like airplanes, have owned a few and worked as a pilot for a while and I'm also a flight instructor. I've had quite a few people over the years who thought they wanted to learn how to fly then get a plane and fly it around the USA, only to realize after an hour or three that they did not actually like flying no matter how alluring the daydreams are.

Boats, and especially sailboats can be the same.

Reading and gathering information is always a good thing, but there should be some actual living and doing involved in there too. The season is winding down right now in most of the US, but still there are some opportunities to go out, and equally important is you can find a boat or two to help lay up for the winter to start getting some actual experience on the responsibilities of owning a boat.

A good way to start this would be to fill out your profile here, there may be someone close to you who could not only get you on the water but would also really appreciate an extra pair of hands getting ready for the off season.

You only get about 40 decent Autumns in life, be silly to waste one of them talking about what you want to do instead of actually experiencing it.
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Old 26-09-2014, 04:33   #45
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

on one circumnavigation on my 8000kg 35 footer we got by with a 35lb cqr,and 22ld danforth, former with 250ft of 10mm chain the latter with 10m of chain and 200ft of 3/4 rode. cant remember dragging apart from once or twice when I failed to set the anchor,this was over a 12 year period mostly out on anchor all the time.

on our 63 ft 26000 kg yacht we use a 90lb bugel with 300ft of 10mm chain. vary rarely drag either,though it is virtually impossible to lift anchor and chain by hand,this vessel we also circumnavigated with.

but the real question is.....where are you going to put the Deep Fat Fryer?

on o
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