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Old 25-09-2014, 14:33   #16
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Are you saying that a multi-fuel camp stove is inadequate because I need more burner (and an oven), or is it something else (stability?).
Yeah, eating is important, probably more than you realize. It's not just the food but it also helps organize your day. It can be a mental thing.

So keep the little primus as a back up in case the big unit goes kaput. That sucks.

A bigger stove will also save you money. (If you a gonna go cheap you MUST read Annie Hill Living on a Small Income). You can buy more efficiently and can food when it is available. Also you can cook more types of beans which take time. A pressure cooker is a great addition because it cooks faster, uses less fuel, and is safer because of the locked top and let's you can (glass jars) food.

I canned a lot of beef and pork and venison a few years ago and we are still working on it.

But you can also cook bread underway. I make no-knead bread. Very simple but takes some planning. Sometimes something as simple as some tea biscuits and jam and tea can be a wonderful treat that keeps you going.

I am an odd ball and really like kero for a lot of reasons. Most folks like propane. Either will work.

Both our boats have kero cookers, and bulkhead heaters (as well as Espar heaters.). The small boat has a primus gas stove and a gimballed bulkhead propane gizmo to heat cans. The big boat has a camp style kero stove backup.

Where do you think you want to sail? I've seen no mention of either heat or fans.
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Old 25-09-2014, 14:34   #17
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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paper maps (Imray)
• kept at navigation station
GPS for coordinates only (displayed on mounted VHF with built in GPS) • kept at navigation station
Compass
• kept at navigation station
depth finder, through hull, standalone display • kept at navigation station
SSB receiver plugged into tablet with decoding software for weatherfax reports globally • kept at navigation station

No, you need your nav stuff where you can see it. It can be inside but must be visible. Compass can be simple hockey puck, but you use it to steer more than you think.

You WILL need a chart plotter, going into new harbors at night is stressful.
The reason I'm reluctant to put the radar or AIS at the helm is that their primary purpose is to wake me up on long passages: and I'm not sure if they'd be loud enough to do that from the helm. Perhaps they could mounted at the helm and then wired to an external alarm in the cabin?

Depth is at the helm. Compass, I agree, should be at the helm: no reason not to have it there - don't know why I placed it in the cabin.

As for locating myself on the chart, with GPS coordinates and paper chart, that obviously can't be done at the helm in any practical way. So, if I truly must have this data at the helm, I'd have to do a chartplotter - which is complexity I'd rather avoid.

Here's why I think paper/GPS in the nav station would be okay. If offshore, I definitely don't need to be constantly checking my position. What if I'm coastal? Well, if there's a mapped obstacle close enough that I don't have time to leave the helm for a moment to check my position relative that obstacle, then I can probably see it with my mk 1 eyeballs - right? Unless it's dark, foggy, etc. But the minimalist solution to that problem would be: don't go into shore under those conditions. You think that's workable?
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Old 25-09-2014, 14:45   #18
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Yeah, eating is important, probably more than you realize. It's not just the food but it also helps organize your day. It can be a mental thing.

So keep the little primus as a back up in case the big unit goes kaput. That sucks.

A bigger stove will also save you money. (If you a gonna go cheap you MUST read Annie Hill Living on a Small Income). You can buy more efficiently and can food when it is available. Also you can cook more types of beans which take time. A pressure cooker is a great addition because it cooks faster, uses less fuel, and is safer because of the locked top and let's you can (glass jars) food.

I canned a lot of beef and pork and venison a few years ago and we are still working on it.

But you can also cook bread underway. I make no-knead bread. Very simple but takes some planning. Sometimes something as simple as some tea biscuits and jam and tea can be a wonderful treat that keeps you going.

Both our boats have kero cookers, and bulkhead heaters (as well as Espar heaters.). The small boat has a primus gas stove and a gimballed bulkhead propane gizmo to heat cans. The big boat has a camp style kero stove backup.
Not all camp stoves are equal. I'm looking at one the higher-end stoves used by serious hikers, like the MSR dragonfly. By my calcs, it should sip about 25 cents of fuel (diesel) per day. Maybe it's not powerful enough though, I don't know how I'd figure that out without having one in front of me.

So your point's duly noted, I'll have to think about this some more.

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I am an odd ball and really like kero for a lot of reasons. Most folks like propane. Either will work.
Ditto. The idea of propane filling up the bilge and blowing me out of bed one morning is enough to keep me away from propane. And the precautions need to reduce the risk of that happening add unncessary complexity. Other than safely, I like the multi-fuel stove (which will run on kerosene and diesel at least) because of easy availkability of fuel. I understand propane is now pretty widely available through the Caribbean, but every single port in the world has diesel, quayside.

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Where do you think you want to sail? I've seen no mention of either heat or fans.
Caribbean. I've got a DC fan listed in the electric budget. I'm looking into air scoops right now (my only concern there is security: I don't really like the idea of sleeping in lonely anchorage with either the forehatch or the companionway hatch wide open - sweat or get robbed, hmmmm ).
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Old 25-09-2014, 14:49   #19
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Kiss,
I'm an anchor freak. I can drag any where at any time with any anchor.

My 33' with manual windlass Has a 40 lb Rocna. Our 44' with a big electric windlass has a 66 lb spade and a 125 lb Mantus.

Evans Starzinger has about 100 lbs on his 47' aluminum sloop.

If I think it's too big, it's too big.
Well, supposing I wanted to stick with a Rocna, how about the next size down, the #73?
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:22   #20
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Your Mk I eyeball will NOT see too many dangers.

You are coming in, after dark, tired, there are other boats operating, the channel lights are confused by the shore lights, the freaking wind is fluky and at least two things are broke.

That's reality.

You can get a variety of chart plotters that are fairly inexpensive. On the 33' I have an old Standard Horizion CP-150 that uses c-map charts. I was able to buy a spare plotter for about $150.

But you can also use a laptop running a variety of programs.

As a back up I've been using an iPad with iNavix. It also has Active Captain so, when cruising in the US, I can save on cruising guides, plus get weather and skype. There may be better solutions.

But it's needed in the cockpit for those few times when you really need it.
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:24   #21
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Yes I blasted my self. I used a full body suit, compressed air cooling and breathing. I have a V8 compressor, that is now for sale. and a borrowed 750 pound clements blast hopper. Its a major PITA. but looking back it was a blast. LOL
Well, you're still kicking, so I won't write-off DIY sandblasting just yet.

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The interrior is mostly complete. Its walnut and oak with some maple and purple heart. I put in Hydraulic steering back in the spring, but not much of the other mechanical is done yet. The deck and wheel house are faired and primered, the hull is primered, but still have some fairing to do. I added a bow sprit and two port lights. Ive put in a purasan and a Marine Elegance along with 4 fuel tanks. ......
How did you attach the wood framing to the steel shell?

Tabs or direct to shell?

If tabs, how do you attach the tab to the beam? Braces as they do with wood-wood connections, some kind of glue?

O, and what did you coat your floor beams with? I was thinking "boat soup" for mine (the original waterproofing: turpentine, linseed oil, pine tar). Supposedly, it's not as impermeable, but soaks deep into the wood and let's it breath - so no worries about a little scratch in the coating. And no sanding it off and recoating when it wears off, just slap on some more. Course, it may not suit one's visual (or olfactory) tastes.

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so much to do and a daughter due this week......
Congratulations!
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:30   #22
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Your Mk I eyeball will NOT see too many dangers.

You are coming in, after dark, tired, there are other boats operating, the channel lights are confused by the shore lights, the freaking wind is fluky and at least two things are broke.

That's reality.
Suppose I move the radar to the helm, to see those obstacles.

Still need a chartplotter in your opinion?
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:39   #23
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

Re..AIS ... RADAR....Alarms

Many will argue against single handed sailing, period. But if you insist.

AIS is wonderful, especially if you are single handing. Go with active, it's worth it. That can be below, so long as you can see it from the cockpit.

I don't know if Radar is really needed for the alarms. Too many false alarms and takes too much power. In the Caribbean it may not be needed.

Boats over 65'are not required to have AIS.most fishing boats and the majority of cruisers will not have it. So in shallow waters (under 2-300 feet) you need to keep a better lookout.

I set kitchen timers. (Multiple) to wake me at 30 or 15 min intervals. 30 min off the shelf, 15 on the shelf. I will even set them during the day so that I remember to look out. It's really freaking embarrassing to nearly hit a fishing boat on a beautiful clear day.

On the 33' I'm working to make all instruments visible and operable from the cockpit, but below. Including instrument panel.

Instrument panel on stb side of companion way on a slide.
Plotter on port side, on a swing.
Depth will be in the cockpit.
AIS will be on a tether so I can bring it up or down.
Radar same as AIS, can mount under dodger, on lower washboard, or in pilot berth.

You haven't mentioned layout. The 33' has the wheel pushed more forward than usual which allow me to see into the cabin. It also let's me use the rail when getting in and out, and makes the cockpit roomier.

I have two pilot berths and wide side decks making the cabin relatively narrow. That's OK, just me and my Wife. And we can't get throw far in a sea.

Obviously I have my opinions.
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:50   #24
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Suppose I move the radar to the helm, to see those obstacles.

Still need a chartplotter in your opinion?

We are posting over one another, I'll slow down....after this.

Loose the radar, at least for a start.

Get a chart plotter that you add radar to. Chart plotter either in the helm, or operable from helm.
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:55   #25
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

So much for slowing down.

In writing it came to me how much cockpit layout is important to me.

Here are the plans for my Murray 33. Unlike this picture in mine the wheel has been pushed right up against the bridge deck.

Having that proximity to the cabin makes having instruments inside possible. It also helps keep me protected behind the dodger.

But remember this, to date most of my sailing is above 45N.
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Old 25-09-2014, 15:58   #26
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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Re..AIS ... RADAR....Alarms

Many will argue against single handed sailing, period. But if you insist.

AIS is wonderful, especially if you are single handing. Go with active, it's worth it.
Yep, that's the plan: Vesper Marine WatchMate 850 transponder.

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I don't know if Radar is really needed for the alarms. Too many false alarms and takes too much power.
Can't speak to false alarms, but the Furuno 1623 draws less than an amp in guard mode. The active radar and AIS draw even less.

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Boats over 65'are not required to have AIS.most fishing boats and the majority of cruisers will not have it. So in shallow waters (under 2-300 feet) you need to keep a better lookout.
No doubt more vigilance is required nearer to shore. My basic plan would be to stay awake (or sleep in super-short blocks) until I get far enough offshore that I'm away from most of the traffic.

Beyond that, I've got multiple levels of redundancy to avoid collisions.

If they have either AIS receiver or radar, they should see me - since I'm putting out an AIS signal and a big radar cross section (Exchomax Active X/S band reflector).

If they have either an AIS tranceiver or radar, I should see them - since I have an AIS receiver and a radar detector. Then of course I might spot them on my own radar.

Short of a robotic second mate, I don't know what else I could do.

Quote:
I set kitchen timers. (Multiple) to wake me at 30 or 15 min intervals. 30 min off the shelf, 15 on the shelf. I will even set them during the day so that I remember to look out. It's really freaking embarrassing to nearly hit a fishing boat on a beautiful clear day.
No doubt LOL

The 15/20/30 minute routine is fine for a while, but eventually you're more of a danger awake than asleep. Plus, the same conditions that would blind your radar, AIS, radar detector are likely to blind you as well. I honestly think the three part system I've described is better than a live watchman in most situations. Of course, the best of all possible worlds would be having both.
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:00   #27
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

I installed the 1623 on my last boat, great unit, it's a Furuno and will last forever. But it won't interface with much else (will accept some NMEA 0183 info). Shop around, every year there are great deals on 7" chartplotter/radar combos. Then instead of the 850 and yet another screen, you can get the Vesper 8000 (?) black box AIS that will interface with everything, including your new chartplotter, your phone, your tablet and can serve as your boat's wifi router, too. I have that one.

What do you anchor gurus think of using 1/4" chain with a big anchor? I would not be comfy with that, it may have the strength but it seems awfully thin.
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:05   #28
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

What are you doing for self steering?
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:10   #29
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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I installed the 1623 on my last boat, great unit, it's a Furuno and will last forever. But it won't interface with much else (will accept some NMEA 0183 info). Shop around, every year there are great deals on 7" chartplotter/radar combos. Then instead of the 850 and yet another screen, you can get the Vesper 8000 (?) black box AIS that will interface with everything, including your new chartplotter, your phone, your tablet and can serve as your boat's wifi router, too. I have that one.
Fewer screens would be good, but I don't like the idea of having all my instruments relying on a single integrated display. If it fails, I lose everything. And since all these marine companies use different software, which is always changing, it might be hard to find a replacement - especially in an exotic location. Same issue if one of the input instruments dies - gotta find one that will interface with the display.

Anyway, about the 1623, how did you find its definition at close range (buoys, crab pots, etc)? How about range - did it really work at 16nm as advertized? Ever use the alarm? Did it work right?
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:14   #30
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Re: Planning the KISS Boat

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What are you doing for self steering?
Definitely NOT an auto-pilot. Don't want to spare the juice, and from what I read they're always breaking down (especially true I suppose if you get an undersized one: see juice).

Ideally, I'd use a windvane, but the price is a bit rich.

My plan as of now is to steer with the sails. I understand there are several time-tested methods of doing this. I've read about about it and watched some demonstration videos, but I guess I won't know for sure until I get on a boat and try it myself. You ever do it?
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