Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-02-2015, 20:44   #31
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

After reading all that, I am thinking of staying home too, but it's good stuff all the same.

I supposer there are two "phases" to consider. The actual rollover event, and surviving that acute (hopefully) period of time, then the aftermath, and regaining control/function of the boat.

At first glance, phase one, keeping things in place during a roll, seem easiest to tackle, and there are some ideas here I will put in place immediately.

Phase two, getting everything going again, I had not thought of that at all.

Matt
__________________

__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 20:46   #32
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
What could you do about external tank vents, especially fuel tanks? How do you keep the fuel in and the sea water out in the event of an inversion?
How about a float type valve, the ball in the hose type? It should work to prevent water flowing back down (up) the breather line, while still allowing the breather to exhale when filling. Such a fitting would be unlikely to prevent air ingress to the point where a vaccuum formed in the tank, and let's face it, the filler would probably leak air well before any significant vaccuum could form.
__________________

__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 20:55   #33
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankOnthewater View Post
When I was sailing dinghies and every time I bought another one, I always capsized and rolled it to see if I could get myself out of trouble... I guess this thread is a sort of virtual equivalent.

I am not planning to roll my boat, but just thinking:
- Even though most of us have secured our batteries, do 'normal', air vented lead acid ones, like Trojan T-105 many boats have as house batteries, leak acid when upside down or when tilted at 90 degrees? - - And if so, how much, just a few drops, or the whole content?
Hehehe, have AGMs now, can even be mounted upside down.

Still on batteries, there is one reason (keep centre of gravity low) to mount batteries as low as possible, and another reason to mount them higher in case of a rollover and coming the right way up again:
- There will be some salt water sloshing around and when the batteries under the floorboard are awash....., they do not provide much power if any.

Still thinking....about engine now, when in rollover:
- If the engine is running (and staying in place), lubrication is next to nil if the engine keeps running when the boat is on its side or upside down, hmm, soon the fuel pump will suck air and then stop? Will that be before any damage can be done?
- If the engine is running or not, and water sloshing around (after the boat has come the right way up).... how is the air intake protected from water ingress.. Water in the cylinder(s) is one sure way to damage the engine irreparably.

Still thinking.... about tankage ie diesel:
- Will they leak from the airvent, maybe OK if the airvents are outside, or will sea water then enter the tanks through this?

Still thinking..... about crew being in the cockpit:
- Hopefully all will be clipped on.... but can they be easily undone if the tether is not long enough?
- And when you undo the clip, can you hang onto the boat, or be swept away?

Still thinking..... about mast and boom:
- How soon would they fill up with water? And I guess a 15 mt mast will weigh then an extra 500 kg (that is when one tries to right the boat and trying the get the mast (then level with he water) out of the water).... hmmm that is lot of leverage.

Still thinking..... let me check the weather forecast for this afternoon:
- 10-15 knots of wind, with 20 knots in gusts, seas to 1 meter....., swell at 2-2.5 meters:
I am staying home!!!!

Maybe those with actual rollover experience could share that here.
And frighten a few of us.

Lots to think about!

In no particular order, old engines like ours would most likely keep running when upside down, at least till they have consumed the fuel in the fuel line, as there is no low oil pressure sensor to shut the engine down. Also, an old diesel should be about to run at moderate power for a good five minutes or more without oil before it siezed. I've seen a worn petrol motor soldier on under load with no oil pressure for nearly half an hour and it was still going when we reached our destination.

Unsealed batteries, from my experience leak reasonably slowly when tipped upside down. Don't ask me how I know this.. the scars have not yet healed.

The mast full of water is a good point, though I suspect it would have less effect than you might fear, not least because that 500kg (nominal) is spread over the length of the mast, and therefore the effective leverage point is only half way along the mast length. Still, it would slow the righting moment.

As for batteries and water, yes, immersion sounds bad, and I did not put our batteries in the great big space in the keel for this very reason. I know people do put them there but it always worries me.

Matt
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 21:12   #34
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,712
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Don't worry about the mast, most of it will drain out the halyard holes, and the rest, out through the bottom drains. However, electricity possibly having now become a thing of the past, your automatic bilge pumps will probably not be working, so manual and bucket, and eventually sponge and bucket will remove the water.

This could start being a fun thread, here.

Hope you have a magnetic compass. You could still find the continent. Might be glad you'd read a lot about voyage making before man came to depend on electricity.
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 21:15   #35
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

I should add, this thread may seem a little paranoid, but I think it is good to cover as many issues as possible so that we can make informed decisions about what we think is worth covering.

I looked at the Parry Endeavour, on display in the Maritime Museum in Freemantle, and I was in awe of the rigging, at how it had been planned to cope with the worst the skipper could envisage. Part of me wanted to rig our boat the same way, but I conceed that would be both very expensive and pretty pointless. Still, it was good to see one extreme and consider our setup against that extreme.

Matt
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 00:19   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,360
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Do you sailors realize how strange this entire thread and topic sounds to a power boater. Once we get past the idea you might be planning to roll it over, still the thought that roll overs are common enough you do need to play for them. I guess like us planning for loss of engines. It's interesting to follow the thread just to see what you do.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 00:55   #37
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Do you sailors realize how strange this entire thread and topic sounds to a power boater. Once we get past the idea you might be planning to roll it over, still the thought that roll overs are common enough you do need to play for them. I guess like us planning for loss of engines. It's interesting to follow the thread just to see what you do.
Ha ha, yeah, sounds a bit odd I know, but before you feel TOO smug, check out post 71 on this thread...

Securing an engine in a rollover

(Actually, it is worth looking at the report, language barriers aside, the diagrams tell the story. And that was a very good rescue boat that got rolled, not some top heavy flybridge cruiser or mega gin palace.)

That ain't no rag and stick boat that fell over! 3 times no less!

As Ann points out, weather forecasts make it less of a problem now, but I do know our boat was flattened back in the early 90's while coastal cruising, so, as the T shirt says... Sh-t happens.

Matt
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 03:21   #38
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Planning for a roll-over

AGM batteries don't leak, work in any position and work under water.

A mast with external halyards only have small holes and would not fill with very water; in fact, the buoyancy will aid the boat to return upright.

When inverted, very little (if any) water should enter the fuel tank via the vent providing the rest of the tank and fuel lines are sealed (as is normal).

I would venture more water would enter the vent when seas wash over the deck above vent height (when boat is upright).
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 04:42   #39
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Really great post Matt ....

Of course, one could go overboard.... But There are there are so MANY small projects on ANY boat that could benefit from a "rough bout" securing system, let alone divert further disaster during an unplanned sole to bulkhead maneuver...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 13:55   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,360
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Ha ha, yeah, sounds a bit odd I know, but before you feel TOO smug, check out post 71 on this thread...

Securing an engine in a rollover

(Actually, it is worth looking at the report, language barriers aside, the diagrams tell the story. And that was a very good rescue boat that got rolled, not some top heavy flybridge cruiser or mega gin palace.)

That ain't no rag and stick boat that fell over! 3 times no less!

As Ann points out, weather forecasts make it less of a problem now, but I do know our boat was flattened back in the early 90's while coastal cruising, so, as the T shirt says... Sh-t happens.

Matt
Well, if we roll over, the last thing in the world I'm going to be worrying about is what falls out of the boat and no way it would right itself. Now our dinghies, I could see it happening. As light as they are sometimes I think the wind could just lift them, take them off and set them back down when ready.

But this is a very educational thread. We like sailing occasionally but only when someone else is doing the work. Ok, lazy. We admit it.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 14:06   #41
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
But this is a very educational thread. We like sailing occasionally but only when someone else is doing the work. Ok, lazy. We admit it.
I hear you, and it's probably smart, not lazy.

My wife is still reeling from the shock of me pointing to a nice 24 foot wheelhouse motor boat at our club the other day and telling her that when I can no longer be stuffed hauling on lines, cranking winches, pulling down sails, staggering up and down the companionway with sail bags and going slowly sideways instead of where I WANT to go, I am going to sell the Swanson and buy one of those.

The best bit is that the particular motor boat is cheaper to buy, cheaper to keep in a pen, has more room and as many beds as our current sailing boat. Oh yeah, it has a smaller engine and goes twice as far on a litre of diesel too.

Sometimes I'm buggered if I know why I like sailing.

Matt
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 18:16   #42
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,466
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Sometimes I'm buggered if I know why I like sailing.
Masochistic tendencies????

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 18:36   #43
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,712
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Maybe because all the sounds sailing are either given by nature, or by our efforts, there is no constant rumble and throb of big engines.

Back to securing things....

I remember a Valiant 40 that rolled near Noumea, a long time ago, now. And the water tanks broke out from their cabinetry and pretty much destroyed the saloon area. So it is something to think about, to keep your water tanks where they belong.

A.
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 19:29   #44
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Masochistic tendencies????
No comment.
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 19:33   #45
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Planning for a roll-over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Back to securing things....

I remember a Valiant 40 that rolled near Noumea, a long time ago, now. And the water tanks broke out from their cabinetry and pretty much destroyed the saloon area. So it is something to think about, to keep your water tanks where they belong.

A.
Stait Shooter's photo early on makes me think our tanks are not secured well enough. Ours have substantial stainless steel straps/hoops, but no chain or timber.

Matt
__________________

__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Roll over window Nissenudel OpenCPN 2 07-01-2014 04:34
roll over anyone? bfloyd4445 Monohull Sailboats 42 31-10-2013 20:05
Planning RTW Over Several Summers gauvins Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 2 10-07-2012 12:12
It's Never Over Until You Say It's Over maxingout General Sailing Forum 12 16-03-2009 17:32
Roll Over and MOB.........the recovery! David_Old_Jersey Challenges 16 18-08-2008 18:27



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.