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Old 18-10-2014, 11:54   #121
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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The Fortress is a fantastic anchor but I would not be very confident in situations of changing winds. On those situations the Fortress comes out and set again, or if you are very unlucky, it is possible that will not set and drag.

I would prefer for an overall light anchor an aluminium Spade. It is more difficult to set than a steel Spade (due to less weight), but once set it remains there, no matter the wind rotating.

I consider the Fortress a great anchor and I have one but I use it as a spare anchor, for a back anchor or as a safety implement in situations of very strong wind where two anchors can be eventually necessary.
We have an FX-23 as our spare, but where Evans is talking about sailing, the current can be nasty. And as you know, the Fortress doesn't like to twist and reset like a Rocna, Spade, Manson or Mantus. Weren't there production issues with the aluminum Spades and lead tip? We looked into getting one for a Chris White 39' trimaran a year ago, but everything I read suggested the steel over the aluminum due to "issues"...nobody ever clarified what they were.
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Old 18-10-2014, 11:56   #122
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Not sure anchor gear is the place to save weight... I suppose you could buy titanium chain though... I've seen that advertised! Keep the boat simple, use alum cookware and plastic plates, install a watermaker and thus small water tank, keep fuel tankage minimum. (if you burn 1/2 gallon an hour and want 300 mile range you only need about 25 gallons)Forget wind and solar, just use your alternator. Minimise battery bank ( I sailed to mexico with two group 27 batteries)... Aluminum winches...etc
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Old 18-10-2014, 12:04   #123
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Lifepo4 battery bank is where I would save a bunch of unnecessary weight, but flexible solar panels are so light, I can't see not having those as a positive savings.
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Old 18-10-2014, 12:10   #124
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Yea, batteries are an opportunity, and one I don't know much about yet. I do have a paper in hand just written by Stan honey describing in gory detail a battery pack he just built and all its parameters. So, I hope to be up to speed shortly there.

I am curious about people's thoughts on the bare minimum seamanlike "tools and parts" collection?
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Old 18-10-2014, 12:48   #125
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

^^ by the way on power . . . the mini's seem to mostly have switched to fuel cells . . . .another thing I don't know much about.
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Old 18-10-2014, 13:11   #126
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

On a 6.5 racing, I can see the benefit with going to a fuel cell, but on a cruising boat, where does the weight savings end? Carbon fiber fork and spoon (maybe spork) would be ultra cool, but the cost/benefit starts to get skewed... and I think fuel cells are still in that category.

Do you plan to race this new boat?

As for tools, so much depends on the boat, systems, location and skills.

Minimum for me on a Pogo would be:

Multimeter
Crimper/ stripper
terminals
a few feet of 12/2
fuses

Rescue Tape
Plumbing fittings (nylon tees, elbows and straight or PEX)
Whale foot pump rebuild
hose clamps

Racor filter spares
spare injector
impeller

Dyneema spare stay (I assume you would have synthetic rigging)
A few spare blocks

Some quick set epoxy and glass

A lot of bolts, screws and nuts. A few feet of aluminum angle iron, bar stock and sail repair tape.

Wrench set, screwdriver, drill bits, taps and dies, and Visegrips

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things, but on a well sorted newer boat, I think this will get you home.

Matt
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Old 18-10-2014, 13:36   #127
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I wondered when someone would mention anchors

It's actually an interesting question when trying to go extra light, because as has been pointed out various times in the anchor threads, most of the 'new gen' anchors don't actually downsize their recommendations. I suspect two fortress may be the solution given the intended mission for this concept. But saying that . . . . I do remember a tri I helped up in Newfoundland, which I ended up just tying behind Hawk because his fortresses were not 'good enough' (long fetch, uneven bottom composition). I am not sure what the answer is, but I actually doubt there is all that much weight leverage in the anchor design - more in the chain length.

Regarding weight on Hawk - an interesting question, with more weight leverage, for another thread is how best to minimize/optimize my tools and parts (spare bolts and stuff). On Hawk I have just carry everything, which means I can fix pretty much everything self-reliant/independently, but that's too much weight for this smaller boat concept. Where to draw that line is difficult to figure - do I only bring a leatherman and some chewing gum
When I had my Stiletto catamaran I had 2 Fortress anchors. A very weight sensitive boat. There is no need for extensive chain on the Chesapeake in light boats; you don't need a windlass and there is nothing to cut the rode under the lower loads. 7/16 rope is a nice size for grip.

When needed, the 2-anchor tangles an setting problems are trivial on light boats. Many simple solutions.

I now have a Supreme (had a Delta) and believe that would be good in smaller sizes as well, but not as light as a Fortress on line instead of chain (I used ~ 10' of 1/4" on the Fortress). Though I like Fortress as a Kedge, on any boat over 2000 pounds I would look for an appropriate Rcna/Supreme; too many bad experiences on shell or hard pan bottoms.

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If you really want a different experience, go multi. You won't learn anything from a small mono.


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Old 18-10-2014, 14:38   #128
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

"If you really want a different experience, go multi. You won't learn anything from a small mono."

Thinwater, you just posted what I was thinking yesterday, and didn't post I thought it would be too cheeky of me, because Evans knows what he wants. If his only purposes were fun, then we might be right. Maybe he's just a monohull kind of guy. Pretty understandable, given all his experience.

Evans wrote that he felt the smaller, high performance mono would be the thrust of the future with sailing. Given that, and that he makes money by writing about yachting stuff, the choice to try the pogo or presto makes sense. So that is why I didn't post it yesterday, because cats always cost more than monos, and the cost factors for recent college grads and their debt was part of his underlying concept.

It will be interesting to hear Evans ideas on watermakers, or whether keeping the boat simple will mean a large water payload for the longer trips....jumping off to the Azores. Less tools, and repair stuff, more satellite phones and other electronics. How disposable will the boat be?

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Old 18-10-2014, 15:17   #129
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
...
Thinwater, you just posted what I was thinking yesterday, and didn't post I thought it would be too cheeky of me, because Evans knows what he wants. If his only purposes were fun, then we might be right. Maybe he's just a monohull kind of guy. Pretty understandable, given all his experience.

Evans wrote that he felt the smaller, high performance mono would be the thrust of the future with sailing. Given that, and that he makes money by writing about yachting stuff, the choice to try the pogo or presto makes sense. So that is why I didn't post it yesterday, because cats always cost more than monos, and the cost factors for recent college grads and their debt was part of his underlying concept.

....

Ann
Ann, everybody talks about Pogo has if Pogo was the only option to go small and fast but increasing interest on those boats have led to the development of several brands that work that specific market, all of them having as inspiration the mini racers. Some even circumnavigate on mini racers or derived boats:

Interesting Sailboats: ON THE WATER, RM 890 VERSUS MOJITO/MALANGO 888 AND DUFOUR 310

Interesting Sailboats: MOJITO 888, VOILE MAGAZINE BOAT OF THE YEAR 2015

Interesting Sailboats: CIRCUMNAVIGATING IN A 16000 EUROS FAST SAILBOAT: THE HAPPY ENDING!!!

Interesting Sailboats: RM 890, ONE OF THE BEST RM EVER

Interesting Sailboats: DUFOUR 310 GL - Yacht.de movie:

Interesting Sailboats: DJANGO 7.70 on a CIRCUMNAVIGATION

There are more, those are just some examples. I think Sam Manuard, one of the designers that design that type of boats (an ex- mini racer) express very clearly what is the goal they pretend to achieve with that design criteria:

Interesting Sailboats: SAM MANUARD ON THE DESIGN OF PERFORMANCE CRUISERS:
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Old 18-10-2014, 15:36   #130
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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I am curious about people's thoughts on the bare minimum seamanlike "tools and parts" collection?
I think some guy wrote a chapter in Beth Leonard's book about that.
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Old 18-10-2014, 15:37   #131
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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We have an FX-23 as our spare, but where Evans is talking about sailing, the current can be nasty. And as you know, the Fortress doesn't like to twist and reset like a Rocna, Spade, Manson or Mantus. Weren't there production issues with the aluminum Spades and lead tip? We looked into getting one for a Chris White 39' trimaran a year ago, but everything I read suggested the steel over the aluminum due to "issues"...nobody ever clarified what they were.
I never heard about problems with the tip of the anchor but in extreme circumstances an Aluminium Spade is less resistant, not regarding the holding power but regarding the shank. If the anchor is set in some bottoms that offer an incredible holding, like some hard mud the twisting of the anchor on the bottom when the wind changes direction (as you said they don't come out, just twist, some times deeply buried) can offer such a big resistance that if the wind and the load (boat weight) is big enough (strong wind) the shank can bend before the anchor twist completely. I did not heard about many cases but one was reported on a test by a French magazine. Spade said they were using an anchor designed for 4.5T on a 18T boat.

There are many customers, even with big boats satisfied with them:

SPADE anchor by our customers - Ancre Spade Sword Skrew - Ancres haute performance -

but I would say that if one anchors extensively (I anchor about 150 times each year, about 100 times for the night) then a steel anchor would be a better option, but if one only anchors occasionally and has a fast boat, than an aluminium anchor can make all the sense.
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Old 18-10-2014, 15:48   #132
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

We keep hearing its the crew & not the boat which packs it in first when the weather roughs up. Would this trend towards lightweight mono cruisers see an increasing number of crew calling for help in force 7 winds ??
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Old 18-10-2014, 16:24   #133
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

FWIW, a Kiwi friend on a 55 foot cat tried an alloy Spade of recommended size and the shank bent almost the first time he used it. Replaced with a steel one and is happy with it last heard from.

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Old 18-10-2014, 16:51   #134
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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but I would say that if one anchors extensively (I anchor about 150 times each year, about 100 times for the night) then a steel anchor would be a better option, but if one only anchors occasionally and has a fast boat, than an aluminium anchor can make all the sense.

This was the issue! The steel was a better option for us because we always anchor (365 days..except here because there is no place). It was one of those things I read, but couldn't remember the details...Thanks for clarifying

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Old 18-10-2014, 17:11   #135
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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We keep hearing its the crew & not the boat which packs it in first when the weather roughs up. Would this trend towards lightweight mono cruisers see an increasing number of crew calling for help in force 7 winds ??
No, the ones that chose those boats are normally very experienced sailors, the kind that will bring the boat home with a jury rig if they lose the mast

these is the kind of guys that call for help (yesterday on Azores seas):



Big boat with inexperienced crew that think that with a big boat it will be easy and comfortable.

They had no engine, no electricity, some damaged sails but the rest seemed pretty much all right, the boat was not making water.
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