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Old 15-10-2014, 13:34   #61
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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how many cents in a dollar?...........see you are metric when it comes to the important stuff
Well played good man, well played
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Old 15-10-2014, 14:08   #62
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Payloads on any vessel are related to the captain's/mate's personality. If you chose a small boat because that is all you could afford, then you will find immeasurable items with which you simply cannot live without. This categorizes most people. However, if you have chosen a smaller vessel because you wish to sail simply without the suffocating accoutrements of modern living-- of which you are trying to escape, then your "payload" has a different significance. I don't see a great deal of difference in readying a boat for sea whether inshore or offshore, based upon the soundness of the vessel. However, detailing a payload for harbor hopping vs. offshore is significant. Based upon the above list, total self sufficiency is the goal for an offshore vessel for items as food, water, mechanical, entertainment, medical and personal. Jerry- canning extra diesel should not be necessary(we do sail, don't we?) unless you are sailing to a schedule(isn't that why we wanted to escape?). However, if you are harbor hopping in protected waters or close to marinas where help is readily available($$$), the payload is not of as great a significance as when sailing offshore(where sailing ability is pre-eminent) as attested by the cadres of "low riders" seen in most popular Southern anchorages/marinas. So, the female wants her microwave, blender, toaster, curling iron, innumerable and immeasurable pots, pans, glasses, containers, 6 pairs of shoes, 6 jackets, casual and evening dresses, assorted jewelry, pictures of her children/grandchildren in appropriate shoreside frames, spice rack with 60 spices (56 of which will never be used), reclining deck seats, and a speed dial to the local Domino's Pizza--you get the idea, right? And, the old salt Captain with his drill press, bench grinder, duplicate tools, extra set of sails and standing rigging, 14 cases of cheap American beer, lumber in case of a holing, Satellite telephone, AIS, radar, SSB, night vision binocs, liferaft, hard dink, 4 anchors, 300 feet of chain, a Jordan drogue, parachute drogue with 300 feet of 1/2" rode, even though he is happy to sail in shorts and a t-shirt and all on a 30 foot boat. Payload? I think you get the idea. Good luck and good packing.
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Old 15-10-2014, 14:11   #63
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Drug dealers; helping the US convert to the metric system.

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Old 15-10-2014, 14:21   #64
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

BTW, someone asked up thread my motive . . . . It is two fold:

1. As some of you will know, we have Hawk, our "expedition boat", on the market because due to various "life situations" we will not be able to stretch her legs for perhaps a decade. A possibility in replacing her is to get something much smaller. I would prefer it be at the modern/faster end of the spectrum, as I think I would be bored quite quickly with a channel cutter. But I would like to be able to bop out to Bermuda and Newfoundland and perhaps the Azores if I wanted to. So the personal question is whether something like an erickson 30 is the most fun/interesting thing that will fit this purpose or whether I could use one of the more modern more interesting pogo or presto type style boats. Ability to carry a 'Seaman like" payload is a significant factor in that decision.

2. I personally think that while my generation was lucky enough to be able to build "battleship" cruising boats, that the next generations are going to be faced with big school debt and less attractive career prospects and so are going to return to the smaller boat cruising that was common in the 60's thru 80's. The racing community has already basically gone thru this, moving down from "big boats" to melges 32/24 and j70 sort of boats. And because people ask for my opinion ocasionally, I would like to be better educated and informed on small boat cruising, and payload discussion seemed to be one way to approach that educational task.
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Old 15-10-2014, 14:36   #65
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
BTW, someone asked up thread my motive . . . . It is two fold:

1. As some of you will know, we have Hawk, our "expedition boat", on the market because due to various "life situations" we will not be able to stretch her legs for perhaps a decade. A possibility in replacing her is to get something much smaller. I would prefer it be at the modern/faster end of the spectrum, as I think I would be bored quite quickly with a channel cutter. But I would like to be able to bop out to Bermuda and Newfoundland and perhaps the Azores if I wanted to. So the personal question is whether something like an erickson 30 is the most fun/interesting thing that will fit this purpose or whether I could use one of the more modern more interesting pogo or presto type style boats. Ability to carry a 'Seaman like" payload is a significant factor in that decision.

2. I personally think that while my generation was lucky enough to be able to build "battleship" cruising boats, that the next generations are going to be faced with big school debt and less attractive career prospects and so are going to return to the smaller boat cruising that was common in the 60's thru 80's. The racing community has already basically gone thru this, moving down from "big boats" to melges 32/24 and j70 sort of boats. And because people ask for my opinion ocasionally, I would like to be better educated and informed on small boat cruising, and payload discussion seemed to be one way to approach that educational task.
+2 we are currently downsizing from our 63 ft expedition yacht to a 37 ft prout catamaran,the kids have nearly flown the nest...how time flies.

if I were to recommend a great go anyware mono for a couple it would be the cape dory 33.
hope to see you out there soon
best regards alex n sonia
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Old 15-10-2014, 14:48   #66
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Mmmm . . . The pogo 30 just for instance has an 11gal diesel tank. Do you want to guess how much fuel Webb Chiles has on his Moore 24? Or our friends on Wanderer iiii? Perhaps you don't know many folks who cruise on small boats?
You are right, I don't. However I have been following Web Chiles adventures for years and I'm sure you realize that he is quite an anomaly in the cruising world. How many boats have you seen with containers of fuel and water tied to the lifelines on deck?

Had you stated the purpose of your interest and asked for input only from people cruising in small boats I wouldn't have bothered to answer.
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Old 15-10-2014, 16:27   #67
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

^^ I appreciate ALL the responses, including yours. They all make me think a bit about the topic, which is my purpose.

BTW, yes, Webb is a unique and amazing guy, and in fact he is running an electric outboard on his moore 24! But the use of under let's say 20gal tanks is not that unusual among the more "regular and normal" small boat crowd. Wanderer III has 15 gal tanks, and has I think has either 5 or 6 circumnavigations and 300,000 offshore mile now (including cape horn and South Georgia).
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Old 15-10-2014, 18:00   #68
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Hi, all,

Our Yankee 30's original water tank had enough for the two of us for a 16 day passage from SF to Kaneohe Bay on Oahu, HI, and carried enough for the return trip (21 days, IIRC). We had water left when we arrived. We used salt water for washing, with a light fresh rinse as Evans described above. We had "duck baths" in a tiny amount of fresh wate, using a washrag. Used captured rain water for showers when possible. (One sun shower).

Provisioning involved lots of heavy stuff, melons, potatoes, cabbages, (the abovementioned 20 lbs. of onions --1/2 onion per person per day), Bisquik, powdered orange drink, carrots, oranges. Had only an ice box, which kept things only coolish after the first 4 days or so. Instant coffee, and tea bags. Canned meats, canned vegs, some freeze dried, (for emergencies) lots of canned fruits, and used the juices for the liquid. [Ed: the fresh onion added to canned foods improved the flavors of the meals.] Condiments and spices. When leaving from home, had made pre-cooked and frozen meals ahead of time, which extended the life of the ice somewhat.

Later on, with our I-1 (36 ft.), we carried 50 US gals. in two 25 gal tanks. And carried 5 gal. separately, as emergency water rations. Carried two sunshowers. Plumbed salt water to galley, for careful pre-wash. Refrigeration and solar panels.

Unless your "next step" is of necessity a long ocean passage, I don't think you need 2 week capacity, but you might need more for specific passages. Would require adjustment when planning that.

Evans, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really think many modern women will want to have much to do with small cruising boats. The ways of looking at food necessities and storage have changed so much over the years. How many college age women today ever saw their moms bake bread? The old time survival skills like living without refrigeration, making your own bread, and eking out stuff with other stuff seem to be largely missing among today's affluent. The disciplined conservation of water. Not that there may not be some, who see the benefits of a minimalist life on the water, just that I would expect the numbers to be very low. That in turn means that some of the men who are drawn to a minimalist life on the water will not get there, while others will.

Of course, if you can halve the length of the trip by having a fast boat, you don't have to carry as much water..... Fun puzzle. If you can catch water, and sail where it rains reliably, again, less tankage required. It's starting to sound like a "how much risk do you want to accept?" question...... And now, to a watermaker....

For fuel, if you can sail, you only need it for getting in and out of port, if you have wind or water, and solar generation.

In any event your putative 30 footer probably needs a dodger and windsteering, or maybe an electronic autopilot.

Someone above mentioned drogues. Few 30 footers have a good place to stow a JSD. How about pogo anchor lockers? enough room for 75' of chain and a lot of nylon?

Interesting question, good luck with the research.

Ann
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Old 15-10-2014, 18:58   #69
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Following up kind of late, but my estimate of 300lbs of books and 150 of charts was on the conservative side. We had a large storage box full of children's books, plus four or five crates full, mostly with books to further our home-schooling efforts. That included a lot of piano books (we had a keyboard that ran on AA batteries). We had aboard paper charts for the entire caribbean, the Pacific coast from SF to Panama Canal, the US eastern seaboard, Nova Scotia, a good bit of the UK, miscellaneous Atlantic islands, pilot charts, coast pilots, cruising guides, six volumes of H.O. 249, nautical almanac, Lunar Distance tables, Bowditch, Unabridged dictionary, hymnbooks, and an assortment of books for me to read. Having moved all this very recently off the boat, it all added up to about what I estimated, and my aching back attests to the same.
Evans, I don't know why you think a pilot cutter-type would be boring? A well-designed one like my own will achieve hull speed pretty quickly, and hull speed is all you can ask of a boat that won't plane. Being a sturdy and seakindly boat that tracks well can only be also an advantage, and a pilot-ish cutter can carry a pretty good payload while still being slippery alow. Mine moves along with an 8-hp outboard at about 5kts in quiet water, in spite of weighing in at over 20,000 lbs. Light-displacement boats are not always very sturdy, and having been to sea on an Ericson 36, I can testify that I'll never go to sea on a boat like that again.
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Old 15-10-2014, 19:20   #70
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

^^ I have always really appreciated the case george cutters. We were good friends with a couple on a 36, "mist".

But I am looking for a different experience, something new I can learn.

After silk and hawk I don't think there is all that much I can learn from a Cape George - could always of course be wrong about that. And I am not much a fan of wood care in any case. A cape george overall would be much like silk, by displacement I would guess they are even very roughly similar size.

I started looking at light/small tri's but Beth does not really like the motion on multi's, so I have moved on to looking at the modern end of small mono's. I have written off the mini's - very interesting but I am just too old for that.
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Old 15-10-2014, 19:48   #71
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

I had forgotten than most CGs are very wood-intensive. I purposely put very little exterior wood on mine, so there is no upkeep. And so far I've laid eyes on only one other CG than my own. Still, after the cadillac ride of a heavy-disp. cutter, I'd have a hard time going back to a spade-ruddered anything. Good luck on your search....
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Old 15-10-2014, 19:58   #72
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

During the first 3-4 years of owning a 36footer with dry weight of 17,000lbs I have accumulated lots of "cruising gear and stuff". Then I relaized that it was all unneccessary as I am still doing only coastal and day sails. So off to storage shed it all went. And the boat is so much happier for it. In the anchor locker I had 200+ ft of 3/8 chain with 45lbs CQR on top of my regular 35lbs CQR and 33lbs Bruce each with 75ft chains etc. Also lots of this and that all over the spacious nooks and crannies. All together probably 1,000+lbs or more worth of crap. Although the boat is designed to handle 1,200lbs per inch of immersion the distribution of chain and tackle weight was making her dive by the bow somewhat. Now she's a happy camper and slices through the waves like a knife through butter holding her head up high. I guess for a mid to high displacement boat it is not the weight itself but the distribution of it within the boat which makes the difference.
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Old 15-10-2014, 21:34   #73
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Evans,

Nothing to add you don't already know, but I wanted to say I'm sorry to hear you are giving up Hawk. I imagine you must have some emotional attachment to am boat that you have put so much into.

I/we have boat separation anxiety, which is in part how we ended up with two, it's like they have become family.

I'm still struggling with the wife and sailing although she just spent 17days on Chouett (33') on the Chesapeake, and enjoyed it. The smaller boat felt more manageable to her.

But neither of our boats fit your criteria being steel buckets.
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Old 16-10-2014, 06:17   #74
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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And the boat is so much happier for it.
Agree completely . . . Silk would absorb an enormous amount of gear, and if you added it slowly bit by bit you did not notice the sailing performance drop, but when we took much of it off all of a sudden she was happy again.

I can look up or calculate the lbs/in immersion, but no-one so far seems to be able to tell me what that immersion will actually do to the boat's "feel". Eg is 2" going to kill the pogo fun, or will it still be ok/better than an Ericsson 30?

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I imagine you must have some emotional attachment to am boat that you have put so much into.
Thanks and yes, it is a difficult transition. We sold silk ourselves, but I hired a broker to sell hawk because I am too emotionally attached.

But this is all a bit of a slow motion exercuse, as it seems likely that she will not sell for a while. The average time for boats her size seems to be two years, and she is a relatively unique vessel. We need to find someone who appreciates a true seaboat and also has some money, and that is not a big category these days.

Fortunately we don't "need" to sell her and I am thinking about possibly a long chesapeake cruise in her next summer, where Beth could drive and meet me on weekends, as there are a lot of corners I have not poked into yet, particularily south of the rode River.
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Old 16-10-2014, 06:35   #75
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

So now hearing the full story behind this exercise I think I have a better understanding of what I would do. If it were me, I would get my Bride to make of a list of her absolute must haves (how much storage, refer, hot water, etc.). From there I would try to find a boat that excites me.

We are getting ready to leave on our first big sailing adventure (cruise the Caribbean for a couple of years) but I have already started thinking about our next. I know what my Bride's list of must haves is right now and I have begun thinking about how I can fit them in a trimaran. Something fast like a Condor 40. So I get the exercise now.

I am trying to leverage technology as much as possible in my future plans. For instance I brought up solar and that you didn't have any weight allowed for that. Look at something like the Solbian panels that can be added to many places, are extremely light weight and can be walked on. Another plan would be to have a small (10-15 gallon) water tank but a 12 volt water maker that could make your daily consumption amount in about an hour during mid-day sun. There is usually more power coming in from your panels then you can put into the batteries then anyways.

Good luck,

Jesse
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