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Old 15-10-2014, 11:05   #46
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

"most of the world stopped using pounds in the 70's "
yes old chap, and as soon as they invent a conveniently short word and metric equivalent to the "inch"....even Canadian carpenters still don't use metrics. Metric miles [sic] are like monopoly money, the scale just doesn't fit in the US, and we know that the metric world is smart enough to figure out the conversions for themselves.

Evans, if that's 100# of clothes, that's two heavily stuffed Pullman (26") suitcases! I've done two months with a 40 pound backpack, and that included all the clothes AND everything else. So I think the clothing allowance can be cut down by at least 50%. Ditto for books, I'm afraid a number of mine got despined and converted into quantum bits. A hundred pounds here and a hundred pounds there...sooner or later it adds up.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:09   #47
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

First, I'm embarrassed for those that can't convert units in their heads. In fact, most should be sufficiently intuitive, like speaking a second language, that conversion is not required outside of calculation in mixed units. A liter is more than a quart, a meter is more than a yard, and a bar is an atmosphere. Easy. Now, since a stone depends on where you are, I can see why you folks needed SI so badly! :0

a. These numbers seem reasonable to me (34' cat), but only if the sailor cleans his lockers to the floor annually. If it isn't used or required for safety/reliability, it goes.

b. Obviously the toy list depends on the individual. I typically carry several bicycles and a pair of kayaks. I really enjoy them. For others it might be something different, but everyone will have some exception, I would think.

c. I like the idea of assigning a dollar value to weight. Perhaps multihull sailors are more sensitive to this, since a thousand pounds saved makes a measure able difference in speed. In my mind, I would have been willing to pay $20000 more if my boat were 1000 pounds lighter, so every pound saved is worth $20. It gives me a perspective when considering projects and junk. Every sailor should be able to calculate a number that is relevant to his boat.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:11   #48
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Evans, if that's 100# of clothes, that's two heavily stuffed Pullman (26") suitcases! I've done two months with a 40 pound backpack, and that included all the clothes AND everything else. So I think the clothing allowance can be cut down by at least 50%. Ditto for books
Yes, you are probably correct. My impression on clothing is warped by our cold weather cruising experience. I will relook at that.

The books and stuff category was a catch all, along with the misc category, to catch all the random crap (Like cooking pots) that I don't list separately. I agree with you that a backpacker or serious traveller would laugh at these "extras" weights as way high, but I also know that a sail boat just accumulates "stuff". So I have tried to walk a middle road, not "hard core" (like backpacking or mini racing) but also not too fat.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:17   #49
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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"most of the world stopped using pounds in the 70's "
yes old chap, and as soon as they invent a conveniently short word and metric equivalent to the "inch"....even Canadian carpenters still don't use metrics. Metric miles [sic] are like monopoly money, the scale just doesn't fit in the US, and we know that the metric world is smart enough to figure out the conversions for themselves.

Evans, if that's 100# of clothes, that's two heavily stuffed Pullman (26") suitcases! I've done two months with a 40 pound backpack, and that included all the clothes AND everything else. So I think the clothing allowance can be cut down by at least 50%. Ditto for books, I'm afraid a number of mine got despined and converted into quantum bits. A hundred pounds here and a hundred pounds there...sooner or later it adds up.
The problem with the metric system is it needs something between the cm and the Metre. Let's face it...The advantage of Imperial is the foot... it's a common size for visualizing. "That snake was 2 ft long!" vs "that snake was 60 com long"... huh? Being an engineer I have no problem with either, but many do..
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:20   #50
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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c. I like the idea of assigning a dollar value to weight. Perhaps multihull sailors are more sensitive to this, since a thousand pounds saved makes a measure able difference in speed. In my mind, I would have been willing to pay $20000 more if my boat were 1000 pounds lighter, so every pound saved is worth $20. It gives me a perspective when considering projects and junk. Every sailor should be able to calculate a number that is relevant to his boat.
It is an interesting concept.

I understand the concept when considering a carbon mast or a water maker, and to using an iPad to save book weight . . . . In those there is a pretty clear cost/weight trade-off.

But how do you use/apply it to which "boat junk" to carry? Say your kayak weights 50lbs, and your weight value is $20/lb, how do you think about whether carrying that kayak is worth $1000 to you?
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:38   #51
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

I've done a few cruises of 2-3 months each on a Hunter 30 and last summer sailed by Beneteau 32 from the BVIs back to Florida. I carried much less water than you mentioned: A 60 gallon tank plus maybe another 15 on top of that. At 2 gallons per person per day, that meant filling up every 2.5 weeks or so, less often when it was just me.

Food for 2 for 3-4 weeks was about 100 lbs. (I second the 2 lbs/person/day)

When I flew down to the Carribean to get my Beneteau out of charter and sail it back, I packed an inflatable, oars, harness, GPSes, Epirb, iPad, clothing, tools, and other personal, and boat gear all weighed in at under 140 lbs.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:48   #52
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Evans,
I cruised a 29' boat for 25 years, but only coastal between NE and the Chesapeake.
I put your values into a spreadsheet so I could convert some of the values to volume (e.g., Fuel & water) and compare them to the values I used on my previous boat. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to upload an Excel file to the CF.

The major differences were:
1. Diesel fuel (I carried 145 Lbs in a 20 gal tank)
2. Gasoline (I carried only 10 Lbs)
3. Ground Tackle (I carried 250' of rope and 12' of chain and a 25Lb CQR, about 60 Lbs less)
4. Books (I only carried a dozen or so paperbacks and a few cruising guides)

Overall my values were about 220 Lbs less.

Looking at my values I realized the liquid amounts were dictated by my tankage. Whatever the size of my tanks I started out full. For most coastal cruising you are usually within a few days of a harbor where you can take on fuel and water. So I think having a week's normal usage on board would be more than sufficient.

Also I think the ground tackle weight would be determined by whether or not the boat carries a windlass, which I did not have.

John
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:55   #53
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Then we approach this from opposite directions. I would say no point in considerng a pogo 30, unless you have already considered what you want to bring and know that it will fit. Obviously you need both ends of the equation, but you can screen out whole classes of boats if you start with an understanding of your payload needs.
People can and do cruise in almost anything. I would start by finding a boat you like and can afford. You can always cut down on the amount of stuff you have on the boat.

But from my experience, only planning to wash dishes in salt water is a bad idea. They will rust. Again I think there are a lot of things you are putting before the big decisions are made. What about a wind vane or autopilot? You're not likely to do a comfortable crossing without one of these.

If you think you want to take a lot of stuff then go for a bigger older boat. If you want to be a minimalist then get a small boat and make it work. Trying to calculate load and then figure out what boat you can fit it in is prone to get you in analysis paralysis. How can you even begin to calculate spares and supplies weight without knowing what kind of boat you have and what condition it is in?
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Old 15-10-2014, 12:02   #54
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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...But how do you use/apply it to which "boat junk" to carry? Say your kayak weights 50lbs, and your weight value is $20/lb, how do you think about whether carrying that kayak is worth $1000 to you?
Good question. For me, the answer depends on the cruise. If the purpose of the cruise is to explore the fine kayaking grounds of Slaugter Creek, Tangier Island, Smith Island, Janes Island, or any of a dozen other Chesapeake havens, yes. Speed is secondary to the exploration potential. Day sailing in the winter or spring, certainly not, and I have a tender if there is something I must see or a need to go ashore.

But that is just the sort of judgement we always struggle with. Do we leave every item on the boat we might use on some trip, in some season, or do we carry things only as needed? This extends to non-critical repair materials. No single answer. But in a small boat these decisions are more important and have a greater impact on overall enjoyment. I like speed, so I probably travel lighter than most cruisers and heavier than most racers. Even when cruising for weeks, we have a LOT of space left in the lockers.
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Old 15-10-2014, 12:06   #55
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

A lot of things I would consider as being part of the boat, solar, fuel, engine, autopilot etc. as part of the boat.
I think what he is attempting is pretty smart.
In aviation it's called useful load, a smart person before he buys an airplane determines first on how much they need to carry, then looks for airplanes that have at least that much useful load, lots of people buy an airplane because it looks good, a friend has one or maybe it's the type they leaned how to fly in, then they discover that often they can't carry what they need to, or have paid way too much for an airplane that can carry in excess of what they need to and it's way more expensive to own and operate, so they can't fly as much.
Properly matching a boat to it's intended mission is I think much smarter than buying a boat because it tugs at your heart or the wife likes the curtains etc.
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Old 15-10-2014, 12:43   #56
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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40 yrs. is very conservative. I can remember being told we will have to go metric in grade school. Probably at least 60 yrs. ago. Why we haven't beats the hell out of me. I think the influx of foreign autos has helped push the US in that direction. Could be worse it could be Whitworth. You know the wrenches with the W.
PS, A kilo being 2.2lbs. has made an impact, being a wise ass again.
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Old 15-10-2014, 12:59   #57
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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most of the Modern world has been metric for over 40 years .
sorry but you have to move with the times.
the only "imperial" units sailors use these days are degrees ,minutes and seconds
Hey hey hey us stubborn Americans don't need to convert to metric. We like our imperial measurements right where the are Besides we have learned that the rest of the world eventually bends to us as long as you have enough money.

Every foreign country I've traveled to (which isn't a ton but enough) has plenty of people that speak English and can cater to my needs. Air traffic all over the word is regulated in English, every time I've "needed" to spend money in a foreign land people miraculously started to speak English and the few places I've run into where no one speaks English are always (well almost always) willing to play charades with you to figure out what you want as long as money is involved. Offer someone money to give you directions and the language barrier gets much smaller.
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Old 15-10-2014, 13:10   #58
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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But from my experience, only planning to wash dishes in salt water is a bad idea. They will rust. Again I think there are a lot of things you are putting before the big decisions are made. What about a wind vane or autopilot? You're not likely to do a comfortable crossing without one of these.
I completely agree self steering is critical. My initial reaction is that it will clearly be windvane (a monitor is 52lbs and is heavy enough it should be added as a line item) with possibly a tiller pilot add-on. But it may be that down in the "light and fast" types (pogo, presto) an autopilot (NKE) would be better. That is an interesting systems analysis - I am going to guess they end up roughly ballpark the same weight but with reliability, performance and energy consumption trade-offs.

We use plastic plates/bowls/cups. I don't think they are going to rust

We have some Kmart stainless silverware that has been round the world twice, mostly washed in salt water, with some fresh rinse. I have always been astonished that it is not rusty, but it is not. I wish most of the marine "stainless" was as good as this Kmart stuff. There must be some sort of excellent electro type polishing finish.

Showers are for me the difficult fresh water variable.
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Old 15-10-2014, 13:17   #59
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Hey guys (and girls). . . It is/was lbs.

I did actually say "lbs" several times in the OP.
It is all a bit confusing: Lbs stands for Libras, the Roman basic measure for weigh that was about 5,076 English grains, the old English basic weight measure, but they call it Pounds too and they have not the same weight everywhere.

Back to the boat weight, as important as the weight is the way it is placed. Basically a sailing boat limit on loading has to do with stability. Weight increases the RM but diminishes the boat AVS. There is a point where the AVS and the final stability (at angles of heel superior to 60) becomes dangerously poor. The boat should not be loaded in a way that compromises seriously the AVS and the final stability. Normally on most sailing boats I know off the difference on the AVS with the boat loaded and unloaded is not bigger than 5.
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Old 15-10-2014, 13:31   #60
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Hey hey hey us stubborn Americans don't need to convert to metric. We like our imperial measurements right where the are Besides we have learned that the rest of the world eventually bends to us as long as you have enough money.

Every foreign country I've traveled to (which isn't a ton but enough) has plenty of people that speak English and can cater to my needs. Air traffic all over the word is regulated in English, every time I've "needed" to spend money in a foreign land people miraculously started to speak English and the few places I've run into where no one speaks English are always (well almost always) willing to play charades with you to figure out what you want as long as money is involved. Offer someone money to give you directions and the language barrier gets much smaller.
how many cents in a dollar?...........see you are metric when it comes to the important stuff
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