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Old 15-10-2014, 05:42   #31
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

The anchors and chain is about "carrying spare" . . . I was assuming for "blue water" you might be further from the supply chain and thus need to carry spare. For coastal you are rarely far away from being able to buy some sort of anchor. I personally think the "coastal" numbers are fine for both catagories, but was being "safe" adding the blue water spare weight.

For food, the general rule is 2lbs/person/day for backpacking and kayaking. The average American eats 4-5 lbs/day. My 'blue water" food number was 4lbs x 30 days x two persons + 25% (note:if this "25%" extra can be much more that that in food value if it is chosen for that purpose). And yes you have fish. By the way, the "4-5lbs" includes drinks like soda and milk, which is relevant when we come next to water . . . .

For water, the kayaking standard is 2lts/person/day. My "blue water" number is 2lts x two persons x 30 days + 25%, and will note that we have always been successful at catching rain but there are a few speciality passages where it might not happen.

For electricity, I would assume solar capability and a wind vane (steering). Perhaps a Honda generator.

My aim was plausible payload numbers that would comfortably fit in an Ericson 30 and just fit on a pogo 30. I think I have arrived at that general ballpark. I was curious if anyone saw major holes or over weight items.
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Old 15-10-2014, 05:51   #32
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

I do question (politely) Benz's 300 lbs of books and 150 lbs of charts?

I know 30' isn't a large boat and that anything can be overloaded, but does a couple of hundred lbs one way or the other really matter? Cruising, not racing
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Old 15-10-2014, 05:58   #33
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

Our books and charts mostly weight nothing these days, on an iPad or chip for plotter. There will be some you need in paper, but way less than "the old days" . . . . But let's not get derailed by the paper vs e-navigation discussion - I was initially thinking about books included in the 200lbs of "personal stuff" category.

I completely agree a couple 100lbs either way here don't matter. What I was trying to figure was where in the 1000-5000lbs (which various people had mentioned to me as the "necessary") range was practical. 5000lbs will simply not work on any 30'er except a channel cutter type, while 1000lbs would be ideal for the pogo types.
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Old 15-10-2014, 07:22   #34
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

I'm not wanting to bring up the electronic vs paper nav thing either, that is as beaten as the gun threads. but if you start out outfitting with weight in mind, you can eliminate a tremendous amount with simple things like lightweight cooking utensils, plastic bowls and containers etc.
I think that since your thinking about weight now, you won't let it become a problem. I'm not experienced, but I think weight creeps onto boats over time, we just start pack ratting stuff until one day we have accumulated 1,000 lbs of weight that we didn't use to have.
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Old 15-10-2014, 07:56   #35
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeod View Post
I don't know the lbs but since buying our Tartan 33 five years ago we have sunk it about 6 inches...
... There is probably a formula to figure out the lbs per inch of waterline...
POUNDS PER INCH IMMERSION (PPI):
The weight required to sink the yacht one inch.
It is calculated by multiplying the LWL area* by 5.333 for sea water or 5.2 for fresh.
The PPI usually increases as the hull sinks into the water as the LWL area is also increasing due to the shape of the hull above water.

* WATERLINE AREA:
The area of the LWL, usually expressed in square feet.
It is not always easily obtained but can be calculated roughly for a sailboat by the formula :
0.67 x LWL x Beam.
It is more accurate if you have the Beam WL rather than the Beam(Max), of course.

From Ted Brewer ➥ Ted Brewer Yacht Design
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Old 15-10-2014, 08:51   #36
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

The tartan 30 is quoted (by its designers) as having 710lbs/in of immersion.

710lbs/in x 6" = 4,250lbs (for a 33 it would be a bit higher, let's say 10% = 4,675)

That's 47% of the quoted displacement of the 33 (10,000lbs).

If you really have that much I suspect the boat is suffering a bit.
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Old 15-10-2014, 09:05   #37
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

What confused me about the measurement was the fuel. Who goes to sea with 10 gals of diesel in their tanks or 5 gals of gas? I think those weights are way low for the norm.
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Old 15-10-2014, 09:57   #38
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
What confused me about the measurement was the fuel. Who goes to sea with 10 gals of diesel in their tanks or 5 gals of gas? I think those weights are way low for the norm.
Same goes for 325lbs of water. 325 liters is more like it.
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:12   #39
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
My aim was plausible payload numbers that would comfortably fit in an Ericson 30 and just fit on a pogo 30. I think I have arrived at that general ballpark. I was curious if anyone saw major holes or over weight items.
This is where the whole thread seems to be breaking down for me. Each boat has a unique pounds per inch of immersion and how much you can really immerse the boat before you are in an unsafe condition. For instance it was already thrown out that the PPI for a Tartan 30 is 866. For an Ericson 30+ its 947 and for my Catalina 310 its 1,082. (used Carl's sail Calculator for my info) So 3,000 lbs of gear, supplies, food and crew would put the Tartan down 3.5 inches, the Ericson down 3.2 inches and the Catalina down 2.8 inches.

But if you were to put my 310 more than 3-4 inches down it would be a significant problem with that boat. The Ericson or the Tartan might be ok with up to 6 inches down.

My point being if you want to cruise small you first have to find your boat, IMO. Then you can figure out where to spend your weight and storage resources.

As to some of your numbers, they don't particular make sense to me. For instance, you have 39 gallons of water figuring 2 liters per person per day. That might be fine for drinking but what about cooking, cleaning, washing, etc. Also, if weight is your primary concern, get a water maker and you don't have to carry as much. Only carrying 10 gallons of diesel, that doesn't give much for charging or much of a cruising range. The 106 pounds for a dinghy and outboard, that is a small dinghy and motor for cruising. You talk about solar, wind generator and Honda generator but don't include weight for these items. How long are you planning to run the Honda if you only have a couple gallons of gasoline?
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:38   #40
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Wow, this has to be some sort of record for a thread going off the rails. Carrying capacity to a squabble about measuring systems in less than an hour ... impressive.


Why go fast, when you can go slow
it sure is! If you like metric.. convert it! If you don't use it! who cares....


So if the units are pounds then.. not near enough diesel!
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:39   #41
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
What confused me about the measurement was the fuel. Who goes to sea with 10 gals of diesel in their tanks or 5 gals of gas? I think those weights are way low for the norm.
Mmmm . . . The pogo 30 just for instance has an 11gal diesel tank. Do you want to guess how much fuel Webb Chiles has on his Moore 24? Or our friends on Wanderer iiii? Perhaps you don't know many folks who cruise on small boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
My point being if you want to cruise small you first have to find your boat, IMO. Then you can figure out where to spend your weight and storage resources.
Then we approach this from opposite directions. I would say no point in considerng a pogo 30, unless you have already considered what you want to bring and know that it will fit. Obviously you need both ends of the equation, but you can screen out whole classes of boats if you start with an understanding of your payload needs.

As to the dinghy and outboard weights . . . Those are actual MFG's weights for a specific dinghy and outboard . . . Yes, both are small, but they are workable. You simply don't have deck/stowage room for a big combo.

As to the water, remember both that there are "drinks" included in the food number and rain. Dishes will be washed in salt water and showers will be salt with a fresh final rinse. If you don't want to cruise like that, fine, I understand, there is another thread here where someone is saying they can not live without a washing machine. It's all choices.

A Honda 1000 will actually run a quite long time on 5gals, particularly given the likely charging needs of this boat (a back of the envelope calc suggested that was enough for a 30 day passage) You are correct I did not include it in the weight list, because it was a "perhaps", but they are quite light - 29 lbs (the mini transat boats used to carry them - have now switched to fuel cells).
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:43   #42
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Why, were you banned from google? ))

A yard was the lenght from his waste to the ground (I think).
A tad lower than from his waist?
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:54   #43
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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most of the Modern world has been metric for over 40 years .
sorry but you have to move with the times.
the only "imperial" units sailors use these days are degrees ,minutes and seconds
40 yrs. is very conservative. I can remember being told we will have to go metric in grade school. Probably at least 60 yrs. ago. Why we haven't beats the hell out of me. I think the influx of foreign autos has helped push the US in that direction. Could be worse it could be Whitworth. You know the wrenches with the W.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:02   #44
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...you can eliminate a tremendous amount with simple things like lightweight cooking utensils, plastic bowls and containers etc....but I think weight creeps onto boats over time, we just start pack ratting stuff until one day we have accumulated 1,000 lbs of weight that we didn't use to have.
We simply can't eat off plastic plates, it makes us both gag, literally. We started out with that crap, but then brought some older family china dinner plates and bowls onboard, knock on wood they're still there, carefully stowed.

In reading about cooking on other threads, it seems to me that there are many gourmet cooks and folks who love their "utensils & gear" to some amazing lengths, not even including breadmakers! We've got three pots, two saucepans and the regular kitchen utensils like spatulas and knives. The pressure cooker is optional!

I'm not sure what more one needs, especially when I read about newer boats the same size as ours where the new skippers or their wives rant about the lack of storage space when indeed they have twice as much as we do. What can they possibly need? This is NOT a rhetorical question, perhaps you can enlighten me.

Yup, stuff tends to creep in, but most of my "creepy" stuff is spares and I'm only a coastal cruiser, but when hanging out in Drakes Bay along the coast, or even in the California Delta, one could be as far away from replacement parts as any long distance cruiser.

I don't have any difficulty translating metric and English units, 'cuz I can remember 2.54 pretty easily. I do, however, get horribly confused with pints, ounces, quarts and gallons!!! How can you tell I was never a good cook!

We've had our boat 16 years now, still floating somewhat above her waterline.
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Old 15-10-2014, 11:03   #45
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Re: Payload for small boat cruising?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
A tad lower than from his waist?
Is that how they select the king?

Anyway, if you can deal with bland food day after day (inherited talent I have) - then:

Eliminate the peanut butter (kidding - can't work without it)
-Replace it with the dried stuff (reconstituted with
the watermaker water).

Switchout the books for a kindle.

Drink reconstituted powdered milk, and dried sweet tea fixins (with lightweight powdered sweetener)

Eat reconstituted dried rice, beans, fruit, and meat.

Be skinny as a rail.

Have skinny wife.
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