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Old 18-10-2014, 17:18   #136
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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I don't think either of us would sleep well with only a Fortress as our primary. A 25lb Rocna would (...)
If we think WEIGHT, I would also consider an alloy Spade. This could save another couple of pounds (of weight, not of currency ;-).

Fortress, in the right bottom, will make an excellent primary BUT all Danforth knocks are known for poor resetting if veered to much too soon.

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Old 18-10-2014, 17:44   #137
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Amazing all the tips on weight savings! Like alloy winches. Like fewer winches. We have 4. Can man do with 2?

I think, in the tools department there are at least two routes to explore:

- simple boat gear calls for simple and fewer tools,

- there are tools and then there are tools,

An example of the latter is our new cordless drill / screw driver (Bosch, lithium). It is smaller, it is lighter and ... with a 3M pad I used it for all lamination repair during our last trip. Yes, I could do without, but if you can have one tool that does the job of 3 others, this is a deal of sorts.

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Old 18-10-2014, 18:14   #138
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Anyone ever actually use bolt cutters? They are one of those "safety items" (big ones) I have carried for decades and never touched.

I also use a lithium drill quite a bit (actually have two on hawk). I think a grinder and a jig saw would be my second & third most used power tools, but I think neither necessary for this 'minimal" kit - anyone want to strongly disagree?

My shackle collection can be pretty much replaced with some Dyneema cord. The bolt collection will take a bit more thought (there is some surprising weight and space there now).

I took my wire snake off in my pre-boat show cleaning up, and then immediately regretted it as a plastic bag and mass of weeds got sucked/stuck in the engine intake seacock.

With a much shorter/smaller mast will have to think about whether my rock climbing mast climbing gear/approach is still best, or if the shorter height might tilt things toward the block and tackle approach. I remember when Dave Martin when up his cal 25 mast, and the boat heeled over so that his feet were almost in the water

Btw . . . Monos vs multis . . . . I tried to talk Beth into a tri some years ago, but she is not a big fan of the motion of multihulls offshore. She finds it unpredictable and jerky and likes the mono motion better. Back when we started sailing there was a group of guys (like victor Shane) world cruising in 30' tris, and also some serious Ostar action, but my impression is that is pretty much all gone - or are there still some guys doing serious ocean work in 30' multi's?
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Old 18-10-2014, 18:22   #139
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

We tried purchasing a 39' tri, but deck rot and not wanting to give-up our toys ended that quest. Chris White said the minimum for a safe offshore design trimaran was 40'.... he never told me if his own design 39' slipped in that category or was cut off. I never asked again as I didn't want him to answer different than I wanted to hear.

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Old 18-10-2014, 18:28   #140
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

^^ well the 30' tris were definitely a proving/testing ground for the para-anchors and drogues - it's why victor wrote the DDDB.

Ferrier has a 36' model he thinks is perfectly "ocean capable". His thinking seemed more to be that fixed beams were more appropriate than folding beams for ocean work, rather than any hard size minimum, and the 36 had fixed beams. But it is a bigger boat than I was thinking of and slips would be more difficult.
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Old 18-10-2014, 18:37   #141
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Hi Evans,

If you have synthetic standing rigging, which is a huge weight savings, you can also leave behind the bolt cutters. Instead of a cordless drill (how would I charge it up , with no batteries?) I use an old-fashioned brace. Drilled half-inch holes in 1/4 thick aluminum with it. I would get a set of cobalt bits with flats ground in the shank so the brace will grip them tight. Weighs far less than any cordless battery drill. You can save gobs of weight by eschewing an inboard engine and using an outboard. Less tools, less spares. One hammer, one screwdriver with ends you can change out, one set of wrenches and sockets, set of punches, allen keys, awl, rattail and flat files, assorted pliers, adjustable wrench, splicing kit, huge ball of Dyneema twine for lashing stuff, a couple of clamps, wood saw, hacksaw.
No doubt there's more, but you could go through the boat, determine what bolt heads there are, and not bring socket and box wrenches for bolt sizes that aren't there. Oh, and I would not leave home without a few lengths of Bronze allthread and nuts for it.
Ben
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Old 18-10-2014, 18:46   #142
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

If anyone knows folding vs fixed beams, it's Ferrier...and his 36 wide body is a pretty slick layout. If I was out there in nasty weather, the last thing I would want is a folding mechanism holding my boat together regardless of track history or "math/science". Chris' design was a demountable beam which worried me. And that was before I found rot
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Old 18-10-2014, 18:53   #143
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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No doubt there's more, but you could go through the boat, determine what bolt heads there are, and not bring socket and box wrenches for bolt sizes that aren't there. Oh, and I would not leave home without a few lengths of Bronze allthread and nuts for it.
Ben
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That's a good idea. We had a friend who built his own boat and would only use a few sizes of metric bolts. Anything that came aboard either had to have metric in those three sizes, or was tapped to fit them. It wasn't for weight, as he built in steel, but for ease of replacement and only needing a few wrenches in the tool belt.

Toyota and Honda do the same thing in their cars and trucks.

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Old 18-10-2014, 18:54   #144
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Amazing all the tips on weight savings! Like alloy winches. Like fewer winches. We have 4. Can man do with 2?

I think, in the tools department there are at least two routes to explore:

- simple boat gear calls for simple and fewer tools,

- there are tools and then there are tools,

An example of the latter is our new cordless drill / screw driver (Bosch, lithium). It is smaller, it is lighter and ... with a 3M pad I used it for all lamination repair during our last trip. Yes, I could do without, but if you can have one tool that does the job of 3 others, this is a deal of sorts

b.


Not sure. I spent good money on a multi tool with all the atachments, several batteries, lots of sanding disks, etc. I thought I was set. The charger got wet from a leaky deck fitting during the first part of the cruise. The whole mess was useless.
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Old 18-10-2014, 18:58   #145
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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old-fashioned brace.

Interesting - will have to think about that but makes sense - any brand/model suggestion for a well made one?

hacksaw.

Forgot that - sure must have. But I was planning to skip the wood saw, unless someone wants to argue it is essential
Dyneema rigging is interesting - weight saving and good DIY, but after my various testing I am not sure how I feel about it - I had a dyneema innerstay but I replaced it back with wire for my trip this summer. There was too much 'dyneema surface fuzz' developing for me to be real comfortable with it in a storm, and its something I did not want to worry about at all.
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Old 18-10-2014, 19:05   #146
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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Dyneema rigging is interesting - weight saving and good DIY, but after my various testing I am not sure how I feel about it - I had a dyneema innerstay but I replaced it back with wire for my trip this summer. There was too much 'dyneema surface fuzz' developing for me to be real comfortable with it in a storm, and its something I did not want to worry about at all.

Ha! I installed Dyneema for my solent stay as suggested by YOU!!! but replaced with wire for our crossing for the same reason

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Old 18-10-2014, 19:46   #147
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Hi again,

My brace is of indeterminate age (got it for $20 at a yard sale) and has no markings, but is the ratcheting sort. Jamestown Distributors and Lee Valley sell the best modern ones, I think. You can find them from time to time at garage sales. Avoid cheap hardware store brands (like Great Neck).

My boat is rigged not with Dyneema, but with polyester-covered Vectran. No creep, and the poly cover keeps sun and chafe off the business bit of it. It has held up really well, and the nice thing is if the cover gets fuzzy, the core is still intact. I will never return to wire for shrouds, even if my dream of building a 50' heavy-displacement schooner comes true--it will be rigged synthetically with Vectran or with Dynex Dux.
I would have along a small pullsaw with the blades that detach from the handle--jury rigging often requires small bits of hardwood which it is a pain to cut with a hacksaw.
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Old 18-10-2014, 19:49   #148
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

Ah well, Live and learn! Dyneema use, like Li batteries, is still a work in progress.

I do still use the dyneema stay for Chesapeake bay cruising, where I keep it back at the mast most of the time. Not much call for staysails in the bay.

I would like to break it to see the actual strength remaining . . . I suspect it is still too strong for my bench, but I may give it a try.
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Old 18-10-2014, 20:01   #149
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

We do not use bolt cutters. We use removable pins (rings). We carry a hacksaw too with proper Bahco blades.

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Old 19-10-2014, 04:42   #150
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Re: Payload for Small Boat Cruising?

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We tried purchasing a 39' tri, but deck rot and not wanting to give-up our toys ended that quest. Chris White said the minimum for a safe offshore design trimaran was 40'.... he never told me if his own design 39' slipped in that category or was cut off. I never asked again as I didn't want him to answer different than I wanted to hear.

Matt
That's comforting hearing an expert backing up my own thought in the matter. In fact Chris White is certainly referring to the type of trimarans he designs, light and fast. A heavy trimaran, like some old ones that were practically a monohull hull with two amas can be smaller and seaworthy, but what is the point? they will be slow and if one wants a trimaran is to going fast since the interior space is smaller than on a monohull.

That applies even with more reason to fast light cats. The difference is that most of the cats are heavier since most that buy a cat do it for the space while the ones that buy a trimaram do it for the speed (less interior space than in a monohull). There are a lot of smaller cats designed for offshore work (over 35ft) but they are not light and fast.

That is not by accident that there are a lot of small light fast monohulls designed as offshore boats and no light fast multihulls of the same size designed with that in mind. All voyage fast offshore multihulls that you find on the market have at least 40ft and most of the time over 45ft.

That is a fact that Multihull fanatics don't like to acknowledge: Multihulls are not only considerably more expensive for the same size as if you want to have a fast offshore one you need to have a bigger boat than a fast light monohull able to do the same job with the same safety and therefore you need an even more expensive boat.

Saying that, I would like to have a fast trimaran and I would not mind to have a 39fter even for offshore work (just have to be more cautious). Farrier has a nice 39ft design and I dreamed with that one a lot of years....but the price and difficulties to find a good shipyard near by with experience on that type of boats and building took the dream away (more the price than anything else).
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