opinions on poop deck

[milly]

Hi everyone,
My husband and I are building a Roberts 370 E in steel. First picture is an example from the Roberts webpage.
We are building this version as we plan to liveaboard and are wanting the large aft cabin that the raised aft deck will give us. We plan to coastal cruise, have no sail experience, but are thinking one day if we feel we able we would like to blue water sail.
Second picture is our build so far, we are planning on transom slightly raked aft (have not finished this yet), and have extended the pilot house a little for more room inside.
I would like opinions on the cockpit area. We were planning something similar to the Nauticat, like pictures. As opposed to a sunken cockpit.
I know there will be strong opinions on this but I want to make sure we have considered all aspect before we make the final decision. Opinions please? But please be gentle.....

[Cheechako]

So..... if I understand you are making a cockpit aft of the raised cabin. I think I would leave it flush with the deck also. Better visibility over the cabin for one thing. I would l likely not make it a full enclosure/coaming either, and have "walk thru's" each side, or possibly just completely open in back.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Howdy Milly!

First, I think it is GREAT that you are building your own boat.

Secondly, I like some of the Roberts designs and look at them for their intended use and build. In other words, I do not compare them to "racers" or to other boats that have been built by big production yards or using other materials.

Thirdly, I like Nauticats, and one of the design features of several of the Nauticat line is the Poop Deck because of the aft cabin headroom.

My general advice is to: Follow the Nauticat Design

Why?
They are so well designed in so many ways. Excellent for their type of boats. So, I would do whatever possible to mimic their cockpit.

So, I am "on board" with you and don't want you to think I am critical of your plans, your building the boat, or such.

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Looking at the topmost photo (the Roberts photo) I am struck by two things that appear "odd" to me and things I do not like because they seem awkward (as I see it now in the photo).

1. The Helm Pedestal position appears to be outside of the "seating" area of the cockpit, and it appears AFT of any place to sit. ??? What will the helmsman sit on? Possibly a movable or stationary seat aft of the helm?

2. The steps on the stern. While I do think it would be smart to have some kind of method of walking UP that long steep slope of the stern/transom, it appears the steps don't go down low enough (to the water surface) and consequently it looks like it would be useless as a way to board the boat if one is in the water (swimming). I would prefer to see the steps go all the way down to water level, with a folding ladder that can extend into the water (below surface) too. Perhaps adding a swim platform (wood) and ladder would fix this. I just don't like the look of it as shown. I also think some kind of handrail (Stainless or painted steel) that would go up beside the steps would make it safer too. Gotta think of a bouncing boat in some chop at a mooring or anchorage with crew members wanting to board the boat with groceries etc.
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I am attaching a photo of a Nauticat that has stern steps, handrail, etc.

[milly]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
It has reinforced what we were already think ie flush with the deck, walkthroughs on either side, the helm pedestal will be central with the seats/coamings around it.
Thanks for the ideas on the stern steps Steady. We were already thinking of having an swim board at the bottom of the transom and extendable steps but I like the idea of the handrails.
Thanks again for your time! We keep building.....

[GILow]

Milly,

I have a different view on this, but I should add the caveat that the longest journey we have made on our boat was 500 miles so we are very much less experienced than some here.

That being said, the sunken cockpit is my preference to that higher option of the Nauticat. The shelter offered by the sunken cockpit, in my opinion, is far more suited to a cruising boat, where, let's face it, you will be spending more time in less than perfect weather. That photo of the Nauticat on a lovely sunny day is very appealing, but I for one would not like to be perched up there being blasted by the elements as I beat to windward trying to make port on a cold and rainy evening.

The combination of the raised poop deck with the sunken cockpit is, in my view, the best compromise. When we are out puddling around in the Gulf on a sunny day, people gather on the poop deck where there is good seating, plenty of sun and a lovely view. On those days either one of the guests is trying their hand at the wheel, so they get the cockpit option, or the autopilot is steering anyway. But when the weather goes to crap, you can hunker down in the cockpit, sheltered by the deckhouse, and take regular peeps around the corner to see that you are not about to bump into anything solid.

This view has only been reinforced by the number of experienced cruisers who have come to asses our boat, all commenting that either they wished they had the sort of shelter our cockpit affords, or commending the setup as very workable, just like theirs. Also, looking around at the boats in our club that have done the serious miles (and I mean those that have circumnavigated multiple times or have been successful live-aboards for a few years or more), all have similar setups. Deep set cockpits with some variation on a option to get out in the fresh air when the weather is good. This goes for both the centre cockpit and aft cockpit boats. This may be partially a function of the age of the boats, but there are plenty of similar aged boats without the sunken cockpit, and none that I know of have done circumnavigations or serious miles.

Finally, there is a steel Roberts 40-something (44?) just a few pens along from my boat. The owners built the boat themselves and are very, very happy with the results, though I seem to remember a figure of 16 years to build being mentioned at one stage. Yikes.

Good luck, and I really think you can trust Mr Roberts to have got this one right, so many of his designs worked so well. (with the exception of those steps in the first photo, but maybe they were not built to the original design anyway.)

Matt


P.S. That original boat has the same home port as us, so I will keep an eye open for it, though I guess the photo could be years old now.

[GILow]

Just found a photo of our cockpit, very deep, but very cosy.

[alansmith]

Wow...I am always amazed at people who undertake such a project. I am proud of you guys. The older I get the lazier I get...smile.

I agree with the thinking of a deep protected cockpit for safety and element protection. If you ever look at Dashew boats...imho ...one of the best designed blue water boats ever.....they are big on protection of the sailor from wind, spray, and sun. You have the option of doing whatever you like and that is a cool thing. I would design in a hard dodger with good visibility, deep cockpit, and some sort of soft top covering. If you go with the deep cockpit make sure you have nice large drainage pipes. If you ever take a big wave you'll understand why...smile.

I like the aft cabin idea very much. Hope you post more pictures as your project goes forward....thanks for sharing.

[Juho]

Nice project. Your reasoning makes sense to me. I'm personally more inclined towards the deep cockpit models of Nauticat, but never mind that. If you want the spacious aft cabin, then you should take that route.

Some reasons behind preferring the deep cockpit are the protection that the deep cockpit provides (to humans and other stuff in the cockpit), shorter ladders from the pilot house to the cockpit, and easy 360 degrees view from the pilot house. Note that also in the poop deck models you may have a second steering spot inside the pilot house, and you are not forced to stay out all the time on bad weather. Stay on your chosen path if you want a nice and spacious aft cabin instead of the cramped one that the deep cockpit models offer.

I agree with Steady Hand that it could be a good idea to check the Nauticat designs and copy them where sensible. I may be partial here, but I think Nauticat does very good job in designing safe, comfortable, well working, cruising oriented boats.

I support handrails and other handholds in all places in the boat, so you can move around safely also in bad weather.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, milly,

It is a little hard for me to imagine the proportions exactly, so I'm just going to say that whoever is the shorter of you and your husband should be able to see forward over the cabin top (for when you take the boat to a dock). The boat should offer you protection from all sorts of weather (it's warm in Darwin, but often the Atlantic crossing is quite cold) so you have to figure out how best to get that protection from sun, wind, rain, and sea water. Another solution you'll be looking for is how best to stow and what kind of dinghy. Finally, when it comes to sizing winches, they, too, should be so that the less physically strong of the two of you can sheet in the sails. It is one area where saving money can really hurt your pleasure later on. You'll need a way to board the boat, both from the water and from a dinghy.

Some friends who built their own steel Roberts 38 started out with a center cockpit; and later during their circumnavigation, welded it up and it became the sail locker, just leaving a companionway down to the saloon, their double berth was aft, but he fabricated a tiny aft cockpit for it. Worked for them.

Good luck with your project.

Ann

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by GILow

Just found a photo of our cockpit, very deep, but very cosy.

GILow has it right. Shade on a boat is very, very important. I built a 64' steel sailboat and I wanted that classic schooner design, open wheel, minimal deck structures. After launching the boat I soon came to appreciate protection from the sun. I soon had a sun dodger built over the wheel.

[Snowpetrel]

You want to have your head lower than the boom, while standing in your cockpit. And the boom need to be low enough to be easily reached from on deck. This means that the cockpit might be better to be lower.

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[GILow]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Hi, milly,

It is a little hard for me to imagine the proportions exactly, so I'm just going to say that whoever is the shorter of you and your husband should be able to see forward over the cabin top (for when you take the boat to a dock).

Good point from Ann. We have a small step that I insert when vertically challenged crew take the wheel, otherwise it can be a bit of a strain for them to see over the deckhouse. Not a perfect solution but practical enough.


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[milly]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply.
Thanks for the encouragement with the build, it is interesting the responses you get when you tell people you are building a boat, ranging from shock, to envy, to one person laughing in my face.
The dilemma is the safe deep cockpit vs comfortable aft cabin... a sunken cockpit on the raised deck would still compromise the cabin quite a bit, probably not so much if the boat was bigger than 37 ft. But is still an option we will consider.
We will have an inside steering station as well so this is where I would be if the weather turned bad! Although, having no sailing experience, I am conscious that this may mean more limited visibility etc when you need to be fully aware of what is happening outside with the weather, ocean, sails etc.....but will have big pilothouse windows and hatches etc in the right spots to remedy this as best we can.
We are really building the boat as a retirement option, the first priority is to have a comfortable liveaboard - for many reasons - living more sustainably and cheaply, ditching the rat race (cant wait), being part of the cruising community etc. While we hope to build up our sailing experience and I dream of far away ports across vast blue oceans, the reality may be the we only ever coastal cruise around Australia due to not having the confidence to do a big ocean crossing. I keep dreaming however and do believe if you can think it, you can do it!!

I will start a separate post of the build that I can post more pictures as we continue. No building this weekend however, as we are off to the Sydney Boat Show to ogle and drool over what we cant afford!! Exciting! I hope there is a raffle for a 40 footer......

[Steadman Uhlich]

Milly,

I like your attitude.

And I also like the idea of an inside steering position for bad weather, when the boat is designed to allow one to look out ahead and around.

Have fun at the boat show. And…I think cruising around Australia (circ) would be an admirable achievement too. Lots to see along the way and some very remote places I am told up North and West.

[barnakiel]

I do not like the driving position on the top pic. It looks exposed, high up ... not where I like to sit, should the boat get into any serious weather.

Nauticat's position looks slightly better - more footholds, less open space to fly across, a place to sit down at various angles/positions to the wheel, closer to the dodger. And a dodger gets a name for something too ...

b.