Old Boat Refit (Seacocks)

[skenn_ie]

It depends entirely on the material. Brass will turn very granular and brittle. Stainless, even 316, will corrode slowly in an Oxygen-deprived environment (water). Plastics just age, even without UV exposure. As an example of brass/naval bronze. My boat has an original naval(aluminium) bronze prop, and an manganese(zinc) bronze one. The naval bronze one is still as solid as when it was made. The other, which is half the age, has a solid 1/3rd core, and the outer 2/3rds is porous copper. Rudders are also bronze and solid. Many of my fasteners are naval bronze, and still solid (they ring nicely when hit with a hammer). Brass screws mostly crumble when I try to remove then. Some stainless (INOX ?) bolts on my anchor winch just broke as soon as I put a spanner on them, so I replaced them all. With through-hulls, take a few off from below the w/l, cut through them, polish, and examine with a magnifying glass. If there is ANY indication of porosity, replace the lot. In any event, replace all the fasteners.

[Jimmyhenry]

Couple of things.
That they “don’t leak” is irrelevant.
That they might be 45 years old is alerting.
The test we hear talked about “the big kick” is dodgy to say the least.
You are doing up an old boat. Don’t cut dollar corners.

We have recently finished a renovation of a 40 year old Cal 46.
First thing we did was reduce the number of thru hulls. Then replaced all seacocks with the high quality plastic ball valve fittings.

They always work. They never corrode. And they last.

[skenn_ie]

In this part of the world (Europe), stuff only needs to be expected to last 10 years to qualify for "marine" grade.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

Couple of things.
That they “don’t leak” is irrelevant.
That they might be 45 years old is alerting.
The test we hear talked about “the big kick” is dodgy to say the least.
You are doing up an old boat. Don’t cut dollar corners.

We have recently finished a renovation of a 40 year old Cal 46.
First thing we did was reduce the number of thru hulls. Then replaced all seacocks with the high quality plastic ball valve fittings.

They always work. They never corrode. And they last.

I'm not doing up an old boat. I been sailing it since 2011.

The thru hulls look good so far.

[Poche]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

They always work. They never corrode. And they last.

Really?. To me, the words "always"...."never" ..."last" don't exist in the salt water boat world.
Probably...reasonable to expect...nothing is forever exist.
How long does the teflon coating on ball valves reasonably survive if you open and close them all the time?
Can a teflon ball valve last longer than a bronze tapered valve with regular maintenance? I doubt it.
The thru hull fittings should be replaced more often but I'm not on the ball valve wagon yet.

[DeValency]

Skin fittings and seacocks that are 15 years older or more must be replaced no matter what.

"looks good" I read here... that's from the outside... The inside can tell different things. - you will never know until you remove it all, open up and inspect.

I have seen "looking good" seacocks and skin fittings breaking in my hand when trying to close or open.

If the installed seacocks are of a lower original grade - I have seen a lot of domestic brass ball valves that cost less than 10% of the marine grade bronze or composites - these must be replaced even if 5 years old - some of these will fail after a month with sea water.

Hull sealing: Most boats hulls are now made with balsa core - including the most prestigious and expensive. A skin fitting may not show leakage into the bilge, but can easily leak into the balsa core - this can be a huge problem that is very difficult and expensive to repair. Even the best marine poly sealers (5200, Sika) will not guarantee a proper sealing after 15 years.

I have just completed the replacement of 12 under water old skin fittings and seacocks with TrueDesign (NZ) composites - it was a pricey project but for the piece of mind and safety consideration, it is, to my opinion the number one maintenance investment.

While boats and maintenance are always a matter of compromises, one area that should never be neglected or compromised is this.

[thomm225]

I'm definitely going to check (do the scratch test) my 45 years old seacocks when I pull the boat again in 2022.

For now though, they seem to be okay.

I do have lots of rags onboard though and some tapered wooden plugs.

I'm also considering getting some emergency leak stop before I try to round Cape Hatteras and the Outer Banks.

These days I'm usually less than 15 miles offshore at any one time

[Poche]

Originally Posted by DeValency

If the installed seacocks are of a lower original grade - I have seen a lot of domestic brass ball valves that cost less than 10% of the marine grade bronze or composites - these must be replaced even if 5 years old - some of these will fail after a month with sea water.

I'm talking bronze fittings made specifically for marine application.
Other materials I know nothing about.

[Michael Pope]

It is The details. Industrial Ball Valves are made for a huge variety of unpleasant and highly corrosive services -- Bleach lines for Pulp mills ( Sometimes out of pure Titanium)
Acid lines etc. Most popular are the types that utilize a heavy Seat Ring moulded to precision faces that match the surface of the Ball on one face and the flat seat of the Body Forging or casting on the other. Ring Material is most commonly a glass micro fiber reinforced "Teflon" or other low friction plastic . The balls are usually a forged high chromium content stainless steel with a polished surface sometime with a surface that has all but the chromium leached out leaving only Chrome ( They are referred to as Passivated ). Cycling the valve rarely gives problems, unless there are abrasive particles in the fluid controled. Ball valves are a good bet as thru-Hulls as long as they are of a pattern and origine that is widely used in industry for process control or isolation you do have to watchout though for cheap oriental copies where the metallurgy is not monitored.
Also watch out for the Handles as cheap sheet steel handles do not last long in the Bilge.
If they are rated for !50psi Sat Steam 600Psi w.o.g. Which a lot of them are you are fine. Mike Pope

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm definitely going to check (do the scratch test) my 45 years old seacocks when I pull the boat again in 2022.

For now though, they seem to be okay.

I do have lots of rags onboard though and some tapered wooden plugs.

I'm also considering getting some emergency leak stop before I try to round Cape Hatteras and the Outer Banks.

These days I'm usually less than 15 miles offshore at any one time

***

Sorry, my two cents...

Statistics shows that most boats sink right at the dock!

15 miles offshore can be as bad as 500... and if your boat sinks would it matter? Just make sure your life raft is a bit younger than 45...

If I had 45 years old seacocks and skin fittings, I would haul the boat tomorrow morning. Waiting to 2022 is a Russian Roulette play.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by DeValency

***



Sorry, my two cents...



Statistics shows that most boats sink right at the dock!



15 miles offshore can be as bad as 500... and if your boat sinks would it matter? Just make sure your life raft is a bit younger than 45...



If I had 45 years old seacocks and skin fittings, I would haul the boat tomorrow morning. Waiting to 2022 is a Russian Roulette play.

40+ year old bronze seacocks are usually no problem. To arbitrarily say one must replace them @ 5-10 year intervals tells me you’ve never seen good equipment.

We would have kept ours @ 43 years old but it was time to move on to more modern materials that require less annual maintenance .

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

40+ year old bronze seacocks are usually no problem. To arbitrarily say one must replace them @ 5-10 year intervals tells me you’ve never seen good equipment.

We would have kept ours @ 43 years old but it was time to move on to more modern materials that require less annual maintenance .

***
Haha...
• “Usually...” - but the one “unusual” case is the one to sink the boat.
• “...never seen good equipment”: my boats are specified here if you bother to lookup.
• And if you read my post above that marine grade seacocks and skin fittings are due to be replaced every 15 years. Domestic non marine brass fittings wouldn’t last even 5. - just ask any surveyor.

But what do I know. I’m only a sailor/racer for 50 years, internationally, and an engineer for 40... and with my 7th and 8th boats now.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

40+ year old bronze seacocks are usually no problem. To arbitrarily say one must replace them @ 5-10 year intervals tells me you’ve never seen good equipment.

We would have kept ours @ 43 years old but it was time to move on to more modern materials that require less annual maintenance .

Originally Posted by DeValency

***
Haha...
• “Usually...” - but the one “unusual” case is the one to sink the boat.
• “...never seen good equipment”: my boats are specified here if you bother to lookup.
• And if you read my post above that marine grade seacocks and skin fittings are due to be replaced every 15 years. Domestic non marine brass fittings wouldn’t last even 5. - just ask any surveyor.

But what do I know. I’m only a sailor/racer for 50 years, internationally, and an engineer for 40... and with my 7th and 8th boats now.

With your background & experience I'm sure you know more than I do DeValency, but I believe your blanket comment about the longevity of what Sailmonkey refers to as "old" bronze (tapered cone) seacocks may be in error. Assuming reasonable annual maintenance & no electrolysis that is. I have 14 Spartan's below the waterline which are original to the boat so now 33 years old. I disassemble each one at annual haul-outs, clean & regrease them, and usually lap a couple of them that have been weeping. The worst deficiency I've found thus far (12 years of ownership) is some minor surface pitting on the bearing surface of the cone itself. I probably should be more diligent at removing hoses and inspecting hose barbs, but thus far the half dozen or so I have removed (for hose replacement) have been fine. As you've pointed out, not all bronze made for the marine environment is made to the same standard. I've had several surveys done on my boat over the years and the surveyors all say the same about my old Spartan seacocks.

Speaking of, the photo from Thomm above definitely shows a Spartan. That it appears to be missing its hose barb may be of concern, as it suggests it may have corroded and was removed (or broken off), with the seacock itself abandoned (by a PO apparently). I'm no expert but this suggests, to me anyway, some corrosion from lack of maintenance or possibly electrolysis which could have compromised more than just the hose barb. For this reason I would probably replace, or at a minimum replace the hose barb (if possible) and cap it off with a length of hose (until your next haul-out).

But generally speaking, I think most people opt to replace their old bronze seacocks more on account of ease of maintenance (as Sailmonkey describes) than as a result of age. The downside with the newer style is that the teflon ball eventually gets scored by sea life and they start leaking as a result, and afaik the only remedy is replacement. As for Marelon, they certainly have attractive features, but I've been told by at least one experienced (Lloyd's) surveyor of incidents of thru-hulls getting broken off by impacts/groundings, thereby causing sinkings.

Like almost everything on our boats, it's all a compromise. YMMV.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by DeValency

***

Sorry, my two cents...

Statistics shows that most boats sink right at the dock!

15 miles offshore can be as bad as 500... and if your boat sinks would it matter? Just make sure your life raft is a bit younger than 45...

If I had 45 years old seacocks and skin fittings, I would haul the boat tomorrow morning. Waiting to 2022 is a Russian Roulette play.

Point is if I'm on the boat, the plan is to stop the leak. Notice tapered wooden plugs beside the seacock in photo (courtesy of the PO)

I can usually hear the bilge pump when it comes on which is very rarely unless we've had a heavy rain

Sinking at the dock is not life threating but I would me kicking myself a bit if that happened. I'm usually at the boat most days

So far no leaks at all from any seacock

[DeValency]

Agree with Exile note above here!
Tapered stem marine grade bronze valves are generally sturdier and massive than ball valves but need a serious frequent service as you describe. I just wonder how many owners are running it annually as you do.

The more common valves for the last 30+ years are ball and these are more sensitive as you describe and also have thinner walls.

Now, the way more sensitive parts are the skin fittings and here there is always very thin wall. Electrolysis and minerals effect is like a colon cancer - the molecular disintegration can hardly be seen on the outside, but one day (or probably night) these will break even without a significant external impact.

On composites: Marleon and TrueDesign - the potential breaking risk is indeed noted to skin fittings but a proper installation can eliminate a disaster even if the mushroom is shaved by an external impact. I probably wouldn’t use these on thin hulls but go with wide flange bronze fitting. On my Contest, with her 20mm hull thickness the composites should be fine - again - if properly installed.

At any case. This discussion is important to any of us.