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Old 23-10-2008, 11:13   #196
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Nothing half as fun as kicking a man when he is down. especially when it's for his own good

Maybe Ronnie should use his video camera to post some Youtube self flagellating with a broken rudder post to assuage "the gods"?


Way more patience (and polite?) than me
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Old 23-10-2008, 11:14   #197
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like the attachment points on the rudder......

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Fair question, I haven't because the rudder is laminated plywood and the foil section is close to perfect. It would completely destroy the rudder to check the welds however the workmanship of the original builders is excellent in every other aspect of the boat (and it was built by shipwrights for their own use).

So I had it X-rayed (which is only a poor second as far as inspections go) and keep my fingers crossed . But then again I have hard points at the top aft section of the rudder to which I can attach lines to control the rudder externally from the cockpit should the post tang welds fail inside the rudder.

The rudder is also well balanced which helps to limit the forces on the internal tangs.
yea, A couple of lines to the rudder attachment points, maybe a snatch block each side of the cockpit and the day is saved. Yea, I cut the side panel out of the rudder on my 44 to dry it out, there was some water in there. I sraped out everything and ended up filling it with an epoxy compound called "ruddercast". Laminated the panel back on...
The problem with heaving to from my experience is that the boat may heave to fine in 15-20 and 3-6 ft seas, but 12 footers and 30 knots be totally different. My 47 cutter was that way. I ended up spending most of a bad night beam on, even with just the reefed main up, the boat would just not stay up for long, waves kept pushing her down. Something to be said for the utility of a yawl or Ketch I suppose....
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:34   #198
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Well,

When you put yourself out in the public promoting yourself. You really do need a thick skin. Once you go public, and say HEY LOOK AT ME. You need to be able to take the criticism as well as the BEST WISHES.

Ronnie could have chosen to do this privately, but he didn't. He could have slipped away silently, and done his filming, but he didn't. Where in the rules can you read only the well wishers can be heard? RJ I understand it hurts to read this criticism about someone you love so deeply. When you guys decide to go public this is a responsibility you need to carry.

I personally like Ronnie as a person, and my fingers were crossed he would accomplish his goal, and gather experience along the way. What Pelagic says about a flat on a stormy night is the absolute truth. There was no cause to abandon the boat, so he must, and will face his critics.

I give Ronnie a huge amount of credit for his honesty with what has happened to him. This includes you too RJ. You promised Ronnie you would publish everything he sent, and as far as we know you surely did. His honesty makes me like him even more, and he still has my BEST WISHES to succeed in what ever he attempts, and I would love to see him sail again.

Life is not fair, and now you will learn to live with your choices, but always remember this. You guys came to us seeking recognition. Unfortunatley the events that happened did not bring a favorable review. This is an outcome you will need to overcome, and be better prepared to make the next chapter successful.....i2f
Let me repeat myself.....................They came to us seeking recognition.
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:48   #199
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I have sympathy for his situation but not a poor decision to continue onwards. It's time to head to the nearest port.

If he needs to get to Hawaii that bad, then turn around and fly there from SFO. He is much more likely to accomplish his goal of getting there alive.

I have read plenty maritime casualties. There is almost always a pattern of a chain of events that leads to a casualty. If the first problem had been attended to or fixed or if the vessel had abandoned trying to get to their destination and turned into the nearest port then people would not have died.

My philosophy when taking people out on the water is if something major goes wrong, then it is time to head to port, even if you think you can accomplish your mission with a partially disabled boat. I have had a few scientists complain about my policy but then that is too bad, their safety is more important than their science.

If he wants to put his life at further risk then so be it. At least he is not forcing the same situation upon other people.
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:50   #200
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There is a degree of ignorance from other people being displayed on here. Ignorance of the forces involved.

Anyone who starts to talk about streaming a drogue from the bow, needs to apply a big dollop of reality.

The reason that a parachute is used from the bow is that it needs to be big enough to prevent the boat being driven backwards.

Why - so that you do not lose your rudder! Anybody want to validate this statement, steam astern at a reasonable speed, and then put the rudder over 15 degrees, and see what I mean.


A drogue (apart from the series drogue), is designed to slow the boat, not hold it stationary in the water.

If you do use a parachute or a series drogue, the forces are so high that special reinforcement for the connection point is essential.
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:10   #201
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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
Let me repeat myself.....................They came to us seeking recognition.
Ronnie has been on the forum, discussing the issue, and defending his position. Seems like thick skin to me. Seeking recognition? Can't disagree with that, but I have to say his responses have been completely reasonable. I do not hear him crying foul at negative comments. I only see him defending his position. Is he right to defend his position? Absolutely. Is he right in his assessment of his options? That is fair to discuss, but I do not see Ronnie backing away from that discussion.
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:27   #202
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Hove To !

Good point Talbot!

Every boat, depending on their keel configuration and windage profile behaves a little bit differently in heavy seas and wind.

With a broken rudder you will have lost the ability to crab forward rounding up as the craft rises in the trough so what this guy suggests (Best Answer) would have been a good option until the weather cleared and a jury rig could be made for steering.

, on a sailing boatA simple explanation of how to hove to in a storm? - Yahoo!7 Answers

Sometimes the best thing to do at the beginning is nothing! Just watch how the boat behaves naturally then make a few adjustments to maintain a relieving motion for the breaking forces, ……seal yourself up inside… and wait it out.

Kai Nui…….I don’t think anyone with constructive criticism even feels this post is about Ronnie any more….. What’s done is done and we wish him the best.

We are simply using this as an exercise to solve a problem and hopefully give our brother sailors some options to consider.
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:44   #203
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That post was a response to Ronnie's brother when he was complaining about the forum picking Ronnie apart, and reposted it because of the recent remark from DOJ of kicking a man while he is down. If you have read my posts about Ronnie you will see that I do agree with you. If they have their ears open to the well wishers. Then they need to be open to this that is being discussed too.

It is completely wrong for Ronnie to say each, and everyone of us would have left our boat if we were in his situation. I think not. We wouldn't be having anything close to this discussion if he had not promoted himself here. He could have just slipped his lines, and did his thing.

I praise him for his thick skin, and honesty. I believe he should get another boat, and if he does. I am sure this time he will do his diligent homework, and get in some sailing time. He is a much smarter man now, and I would like to see him finish what he set out to accomplish. So if you go back, and read what I have posted you will know I am on Ronnie's side, but I am not going to sugar coat anything. Allowing him to believe there was no other options is doing him no service at all. He needs blatant honesty. It doesn't have to be said cruely, but he needs the honesty, and get on with finishing his goal......i2f
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:44   #204
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Quote:
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We are simply using this as an exercise to solve a problem and hopefully give our brother sailors some options to consider.
I 1000% agree. A witch hunt does not achieve anything, merely leads to people defending entrenched positions. Nobody learns anything.

The only point in discussing this is so that EVERYONE can add the sequence of events to their own "What if" file.

There are a number of people on this forum (particularly one section of multihull) who worship at the great god "Speed". It is also something that inexperienced people think is the way to do it.

Furthermore, a poorly balanced sail plan is also a symptom of inexperience, but will add a significant load to steering equipment.


Now if we add an old boat, one that had had a hard long distance life, to pushing too hard, plus significant loads on the rudder, plus heavy seas and strong winds, the risk factor to the steering system increases enormously.

How many people reading Dave's web site about his long circumnavigation on Exit only, (Welcome to Maxing Out ) noted that he makes a point about not pushing his boat, to the extent that in bad weather, rather than risk his autopilot, he would prefer to steer manually as much as possible.
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:46   #205
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Kai Nui…….I don’t think anyone with constructive criticism even feels this post is about Ronnie any more….. What’s done is done and we wish him the best.

We are simply using this as an exercise to solve a problem and hopefully give our brother sailors some options to consider.

CORRECT,

It has become a learning lesson for us to toss around, and for us to learn too......BRAINSTORMING I think it is called
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Old 23-10-2008, 16:40   #206
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Nice to see we are all on the same page
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Old 23-10-2008, 18:41   #207
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The reason I would not stream the drogue from the bow is because it will tend to hold the bow down as wave lifts it, resulting in heavier strains on the bow fittings and more water coming aboard. If I could rig it from a fitting at the bow waterline I might consider that.

Properly scoped this does not have to be true. If you read heavy weather tactics or any other good book on deploying bow mounted drogues you will see there are formula for deployment.

Fundamentally you need enough scope for the drogue to ride the fetch. If the chute is at the bottom of the trough and your boat is at the top you have it rigged incorrectly and yes you will have unneccesary stress on the boat.

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There is a degree of ignorance from other people being displayed on here. Ignorance of the forces involved.

Anyone who starts to talk about streaming a drogue from the bow, needs to apply a big dollop of reality.

The reason that a parachute is used from the bow is that it needs to be big enough to prevent the boat being driven backwards.
As above the drogue needs to be sized appropriately for the boat - there are specs for this - and yes the boat needs to continue forward.

There are conditions where a drogue is not appropriate and a stern mounted drogue would be more useful.

In this case either system would be deployed to turn the boat either head to or stern to the swells in the absence of steering. In theory this would have allowed the skipper to go below and sleep knowing the boat would not be knocked down as it was several times.

Getting knocked down and feeling that you can do nothing about it must be pretty damn scary.

At the point where the skipper called for rescue, he needed rest, a hot meal and a way to ride out a weather system. The world would have been a different place 36 hours later.

Armchair quarterbacking like we do we sometimes forget the physical and environmental conditions the skipper is in. How he got there is another matter. Sleep deprived in 35kts and 15 foot seas I have trouble standing on my boat much less effecting complex repairs over the stern.
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Old 23-10-2008, 21:07   #208
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Who knows how one will react? I might panic. But if I do, hopefully it will be AFTER I'm hove to under a storm staysail and properly deployed parachute, not before.
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Old 23-10-2008, 21:24   #209
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Multi vs Mono

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Interesting... in 30+ with waves I'm at 2nd reef in main and the storm jib and wishing I didn't have to drop the main but getting around to that point in the argument. Difference in speed of a boat that goes slow *without* the drogue.
You nailed that one. The multi just goes faster and can be deceptively dangerous in a run. As has been ground into my brain and in direct quote from Chris White, The Cruising Multihull

Quote:
The monohull reefs to suit the lulls; the multihull reefs to suit the gusts.
Chris says to use the drogue at 1.5 wavelengths and says that the bridle (due to the multi's beam) will self steer and hold the boat on course (on a run). He implies that the drogue should always be used on the stern of a multi, not the bow.
What he advocates through a story from Walter Greene (>>15 transatlantic crossings) in extreme conditions is NOT to run. Walter advocates a bow tied sea anchor and stern tied drogue while beating to windward with bare poles. As he capsized a 50ft multi on a run to learn this lesson (seas to 53 ft, wind less than 65 knots, but a current running to windward), I am inclined to follow.

The obvious question is "Ok, good for multi, but what about a small mono like this one?" This may have been posted, I will read back.
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Old 23-10-2008, 21:32   #210
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Properly scoped this does not have to be true. If you read heavy weather tactics or any other good book on deploying bow mounted drogues you will see there are formula for deployment.
Yes, I have several texts on heavy weather tactics and have looked through the numbers and the described geometries (I wish my real-life experiences were ever as neat as those graphs...::sigh:, but each and every one of them shows that at every possible scope the strain will tend to hold the bow down. It's just a factor of using flexible connector transfering load in tension.

I haven't needed to use a drogue in my experiences to date; I hope I can continue that run of "luck". But if I am caught out and feel the need I would stream it from the stern on a bridle, with an attached spring line to giive me at least theoretical maneuverability. The somewhat broader stern lines, the ease of rigging a bridle, and the possibly self-delusional decrease in rudder strain are my justifications - the catenary will still tend to hold down the stern, but it will be less because the stern height is lower.

But as long as we've broken out the textbooks... What are everyone's preferred authorities? Which authors specifically addressed issues similar to Ronnie's? I believe the original versions of Adlard Coles's discussed a steering jammed event, but I'm not near my library (waiting for a ferry.)
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