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Old 15-09-2011, 09:00   #31
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Re: New vs Old

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
the person asking me the question seems to be verbalizing a lack of knowledge. would be a great idea for you to actually SAIL a bit before sniping the way in which you have.
Am on the west coast ZEE, born here and have sailed these Pacific shores from Alaska to Mexico, a few times.. and Have never put myself in a position Like you asy in Santa Barbara..
anyone who has any knowledge at all knows the lee shore of Santa barbara is NOT the place to be in a storm.. every year boats pile up on the beach..
For whatever reason, there is NONE that would excuse a Hard Grounding,
No Excuse, Not At Any Time.. You dont put your boat is any jeperdising position.. and dropping anchor on a lee shore durring a STORM puts you in that position...
and it dosent matter wether you've been sailing for 55 years or 55 days, you are not amune to bad weather no matter how much experance you have..
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Old 15-09-2011, 09:11   #32
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Re: New vs Old

the entire coast is a lee shore, from pnw to cape horn, which you would know if you really have sailed it, not just the santa barbara area.
my boat was on a breakwall in santa barbara before the prrevious owner bought her. she was there for a week, i was advised. i have yet to find any trace of that experience in her hull or her chainplates or anywhere.
that cannot be said for the boats i have seen and watched hit rocks and sand in storms in sd bay, or which i have watched xrag in storms elsewhere...\lol... the newer ones seem to have cored hulls and are totalled from the sad times of finding hard ground.

so-- which would YOU rather have-- a boat that can withstand something drastic, or one that is not able to withstand that kind of treatment?
to me, the answer is simple. i would much rather have a boat with a 2 inch thick hull that CAN withstand the bad treatment, as NO ONE CAN PREDICT what is going to happen out there or in a bay.

and , randy. i am glad you are so perfect that you are able to GUARANTEE that you will not have any hard groundings for ANY reason.
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Old 15-09-2011, 10:06   #33
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Re: New vs Old

FWIW,

In the aftermath of the "great Cabo disaster" of 1983, the only boat that was simply dragged off the beach and sailed away was an Olson 40 (ULDB design). Joshua (a steel hull)was refloated after the new owners bashed out the dents with sledges and shoveled out the sand. All the rest of the many beached boats were destroyed, and this included a lot of heavily built full keel designs. Don't remember if there were any leaky teakies involved, but it seems fairly likely.

I find little evidence that simply having a heavy hull guarantees survival of a severe grounding... too many variables involved.

Cheers,

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Old 15-09-2011, 10:07   #34
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Re: New vs Old

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post

so-- which would YOU rather have-- a boat that can withstand something drastic, or one that is not able to withstand that kind of treatment?
to me, the answer is simple. i would much rather have a boat with a 2 inch thick hull that CAN withstand the bad treatment, as NO ONE CAN PREDICT what is going to happen out there or in a bay.

If I had my choice of a boat that would withstand a hard grounding or a newer design, fast and agile, that would get me away from the area where the storm would hit.. I would pick the faster boat..
Buying a boat based on how it will withstand a hard grounding is a false sence of security.
with 24 to 48 hours notice of a major storm, which is common these days, a newer faster design (in a 40 foot boat) you can be anywhere from 200 to 500 miles away from the storm front.. you cant say that about your older boat..
You do what you have to with your boat and I'll do what I have to with mine..
Have a good time on the beach..
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Old 15-09-2011, 10:23   #35
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Re: New vs Old

randy--do you truly have that little good to say about sailors who have experience with life, or do you just talk from your desk. have fun outrunning the next hurrycame..
no one plans to spend time on a beach. is part of sailing, in extreme circumstances CAN happen, not saying it will.. i think th eguy who drove this boat onto a breakwall was a idjit.
i think folks who do not include in their sailing plans some kind of ungrounding thoughts are merely dreaming and writing from a desk without any sailing experience.

going aground is part of sailing. if you donot know ho wto unground your boat and keep it from major damage, there is a problem. boats do not outrun storms. hull speed is hull spoeed and you cannot count on more from a boat than that. surprisingly, hull speed on mine is similar to hull speed on a "faster" .. LOL... boat......
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Old 15-09-2011, 10:28   #36
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Old 15-09-2011, 13:05   #37
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Re: New vs Old

I would bet to say that everyone WANTS a new boat. But since they can not have one they come up with reasons why they have to get an old one!
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Old 15-09-2011, 13:07   #38
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Re: New vs Old

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
randy--do you truly have that little good to say about sailors who have experience with life, or do you just talk from your desk. have fun outrunning the next hurrycame..
no one plans to spend time on a beach. is part of sailing, in extreme circumstances CAN happen, not saying it will.. i think th eguy who drove this boat onto a breakwall was a idjit.
i think folks who do not include in their sailing plans some kind of ungrounding thoughts are merely dreaming and writing from a desk without any sailing experience.

going aground is part of sailing. if you donot know ho wto unground your boat and keep it from major damage, there is a problem. boats do not outrun storms. hull speed is hull spoeed and you cannot count on more from a boat than that. surprisingly, hull speed on mine is similar to hull speed on a "faster" .. LOL... boat......
Zee , this is not a personal vendita, just the way I see it.. I'm 61 years old, been sailing sence I was in the cubscouts, owned a number of boats, both sail and power, logged thousands of miles in full race conditions under sail, and have run aground 1 time, because I wasnt paying attention..
Going aground is NOT part of sailing or cruising, Boats do out run storms, I've done it myself, and hull speed is just a number for full displacement boats and has no meaning to me..
your love for your full keel and heavy weight boat that can be run hard aground and be pulled off without any damage, is noted, as is the experance you have in sailing,
BUT, the world dose not revolve around ZEE or her experrance.. and your way of think or your boat..
My personal views, I see are completely different from yours, as may be a good number of those on this forum, and as different as views, are the boats we sail.. I for one would rather keep my boat in the water opposed to a having it washed up on the shore, and in bad conditions, I will do what is nessessary to keep it there.. be it out running a storm front or getting out of its way, or hiding somewhere..
I'm not so macho as to say I can sail through any condition or anchor anywhere.. the fact is, I'm scared of the weather and will alter my corse whenever is nessessary.. so you can say, my fear is what keeps me safe............
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Old 15-09-2011, 13:17   #39
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Re: New vs Old

And now back to our regularly scheduled topic....

Thanks.
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Old 15-09-2011, 13:29   #40
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Re: New vs Old

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I would bet to say that everyone WANTS a new boat. But since they can not have one they come up with reasons why they have to get an old one!
Maybe not everyone, but this is very much so.

The exceptions are when someone wants a boat that is no longer in production or a historical one.

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Old 15-09-2011, 13:33   #41
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Re: New vs Old

You can of course get an older design built new as I am doing. It has it's problems in that it is taking ages to get finished, unlike a production boat where you can pick from many available. The advantage is that you can also build most of the new gadgets into the old design. In my limited experience of sailing on heavy displacement older designs and modern boats, the area I know I have compromised is light wind speed and it's just a fact of life, under 10kts of wind, I'll just have to let the newer designs glide past me and pretend that I don't care. Since I like sailing on nice sunny settled days this is not an insignificant factor. However, when the wind gets up to 15- 20 kts, I'll get to pretty much hullspeed anyway and a lighter new design is not going to go much better. So as far as running from a storm, I'm guessing that there will be plenty of wind around to push my old tub along and it will be more comfortable than a lightweight boat. Until it's finished I'll continue sailing on this forum where I don't have to worry about lee shores and running aground anyway.

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Old 15-09-2011, 14:41   #42
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Re: New vs Old

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW,

In the aftermath of the "great Cabo disaster" of 1983, the only boat that was simply dragged off the beach and sailed away was an Olson 40 (ULDB design). Joshua (a steel hull)was refloated after the new owners bashed out the dents with sledges and shoveled out the sand. All the rest of the many beached boats were destroyed, (...)
Pictures in Pardey's book seem to suggest otherwise. I think I remember beached havy built boats full of sand / water, NOT destroyed.

You may still find on the web pictures of the boat that went on the beach in Portugal last year or the one that went on a sandy bank in France not so long ago - both light modern boats, not much left after some bashing from the surf.

Meanwhile, some may remember the horrible misadventure of our Australian friend Bill, whose Westsail went on the reef in Torres Strait.

Out in the open water, all boats may be equal, but, based on my data, Westsails beats Bavaria hands down in contact with any kind of obstacle.

b.
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Old 15-09-2011, 14:51   #43
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Re: New vs Old

I'm building a brand new old boat. The only thing old about her is the hull, and parts of that are new as well. Everything else is being custom taylored to my liking by my hands. I had a chance to buy a very nice 45ft'er for less that I will have in this one. For me its not about owning a boat, its about building my boat.
I understand Zee's point of view, its like having a bumper on your truck. You dont need it until you need it. I don't plan to ground my boat, but if I do, I'll be glad to have that 3/4 steel plate between me and the hard stuff.
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Old 15-09-2011, 16:50   #44
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Re: New vs Old

I have come around.
I used to buy into the whole ol' SaltyMonkey traditional is better because of ease and maintenance and tried and true historical boat building over 1000 years whoo hahaha from salty monkey down east boat builders...( i still have boat builder splinters on my arse...wanna see?)

Until i realize it take em 3-5r years to build a wooden boat!

so I say....NEW I SAY! BUY NEW! NEW NEW NEW!!!!

just ummm need $$$$$$$$

and btw i am still a cub scout.
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Old 17-09-2011, 04:39   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel
I think both old and new ways to build a boat are equally good. But they are not the same.

I have seen more strength and seaworthiness in older boats. I have seen more speed and space in newer boats.
Well this is an old donkey. But where's the evidence of that

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Choose your boat to match the job at hand.

Any boat is good in the marina. I would chose a Bavaria or Hunter for liveaboard and limited cruising. A brand new Valiant is what I would chose for extensive ocean voyages.

b.
Thank god a lot of circumnavigators ignore that advice ( markJ) given the costs of buying a hand made boat, none of us would be sailing at all

Modern boats are well designed and will take you wherever you want. A fool in a Valient is more a danger then an expert on a Bavaria.

Ohh of course Valient don't ( or more correctly cAnt) make boats anymore

And give me a European boat over something built in China any day, I'd prefer not to find newspaper where I'd expect foam core

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