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Old 02-03-2010, 12:59   #16
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I usually think there's really got to be a strong reason to deviate from KISS so I agree with your thoughts, good luck!
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Old 02-03-2010, 13:06   #17
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Yeah but the whole rail, 81 linear ft milled and shipped from Annapolis, is only $520 in African Mahogany. Teak was close to 2 grand.
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Old 02-03-2010, 13:16   #18
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One of the main reasons we changed to a "rectangular" profile instead of the "wedge" was for the ease of routing the standoff for the track and cars. Jigging and working a wedge profile is a lot of extra hassle and allows too much room for error so we're subscribing to the KISS method. The new rail will be taller amidships (original taper is from 2.25" at the bow chock to 1.25") as we're maintaing the 2.25" height all the way and the extra width (original 1.135" amidships) of 1.5" will allow the rail-mounted chocks amidships and aft to have some extra strength in the mount.

The "standoff" was done on your boat because the yard used a flat track. If you use any modern genoa track it includes the standoff and you won't need to modify that area of your toerail. The same track was probably used on your mast for the spinnaker car track. Typically Bristol would use use nuts under the mounting screws as the standoff. A new aluminum genoa track will easily bend to fit the new toerail.

I really think you should rethink the way you are installing the toerail. It will be much easier to cut a 12 to 1 scarf for each piece (and much stronger than the '"lap joint" you are planning), glue them together. dowel them if you feel the need and then install the whole toerail at one time. Start at the stern, drill and bolt the first hole, drill/set the second hole / bolt, have a healper bend the rail to align the third hole, drill and mount it, bend it to the fourth hole, etc. Once it is dry mounted, bed it, bolt it down and you are done.

But, good luck with it either way,
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Old 02-03-2010, 13:17   #19
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What is this standoff that you are talking about?? Aluminum genoa track has the stand off etruded in. Stainless track usually has a thin piece of wood as a standoff/riser. The stand off is not part of the rail but part of the track usually for the simple reason that it's really easy to add it to the cap rail and an unnecessary complication if it's milled into the cap rail.
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Old 02-03-2010, 13:24   #20
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Iam going thru the same process at the moment and my tri is 36 ft long .I went with one join down each side with a scarf joint to join the two pieces together +epoxy, no offence intended but i think you are creating alot of unneccessary work for yourself not to mention alot more joins to have future problems/water ingress i understand you have product supply problems but i would look to all timber yards for longer lenghts first and as said before no malice intended regards andy
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Old 02-03-2010, 14:08   #21
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The "standoff" was done on your boat because the yard used a flat track
Yep, and we're reusing the track. It's not in the budget to replace it.
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...much stronger than the '"lap joint" you are planning
It's the original joint used by Bristol we're copying.
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Start at the stern, drill and bolt the first hole...
We have to start at the bow as the bowchock/toerail joint has an appx 45 deg "scarf" and the stern is a dead end (much easier to dress and join). We're also reusing the existing holes due to the sheer number of bolts on the hull/deck joint. To go back and re-fab would take days and dollars we don't have.
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What is this standoff that you are talking about??
The toe rail had a routed/milled strip 5/8" wide (on-center) and 1/4" tall to mount the flat genoa track to. The stand-off allows the movement of the cars retainer tabs under the track edge.
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i think you are creating alot of unneccessary work for yourself not to mention alot more joins to have future problems/water ingress
We are copying exactly what was done at the Bristol factory on the old rail with the exception of the type of wood and the profile being rectangular instead of tapered wedge. All other mounting, jointing, and routing is a direct copy.
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Old 02-03-2010, 14:20   #22
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The difference is the yard glued the toerail together as one piece before installing--and regardless of the lap joints they used, you have the opportunity to make better, stronger joints with a proper scarf instead of a lap joint. (The fact that the Bristol yard used inherently weaker joints shouldn't dictate that you repeat them.) Finally, you will have difficulty with the sheer if you install the boards individually, and the difficulties will be right at those lap joints. I hope you will post pictures of your progress, and good luck with it.
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Old 02-03-2010, 14:47   #23
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Yessir, understood, and they are/were bolted through the joint as well. I think ya'll misunderstand, it's not going to be installed piecemeal, it's going to be "fitted". Final installation will happen after it is completed in it's entirety (incl. stain and varnish).
Could you elaborate on "difficulty with the sheer" at the joints? Pinching/sagging?

Rover:
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I'd keep the taper, it's minimal and will make the job look better.
Unfortunately, not my call on that one.

PS: segment lengths will be 9'
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Old 02-03-2010, 15:43   #24
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Rip a different piece of wood for the genoa track riser rather than mill it into the toe rail. That would make fabication way way easier. If you do it that way, the toe rail can be simply ripped in a table saw the same dimension along its whole length. That's the way they did it on my old Pearson. Until I pulled the tracks off, couldn't tell the riser was separate from the toe rail. FWIW, it looked like they bedded the riser to the toe rail in varnish which worked fine for 40 years.

Unless you can transfer the holes accurately from the old rail to the new, reusing the old holes will be a major pain. I'd think you could fill the old holes with thickened epoxy and ground flush, if necessary, in one day. Back the holes with duct tape to contain the epoxy and use a counter-sink to radius the top of the holes before epoxying.

Using the factory method may not be the best way to do things. Manufacturers often have motives, like labor or material costs, that supercede 'best practices'. Not saying that Bristol cut corners with their construction method, just be sure the fctory way holds up against the best way to do it.

Still think you should use the longest pieces available. I checked at my local lumber supplier here in Kona on the cost of teak. They stock 14' lengths of 2x8 and can special order longer lengths. Price is $27.70 a board foot. If my math is correct, a single 2x8x18' comes out to $658. Take the board to a woodshop and have them rip it into four 1 1/2" tapered strips and a 1/4" x 5/8" standoff strip. Shouldn't cost more than a $100 as you're looking at less than an hours labor and virtually no set up cost to get the lumber milled. You'd be into it for under around $800 for teak and have only one scarf joint per side. Even if you went with shorter pieces like 12', if longer pieces were cost prohibitive, you'd only have two scarf joints per side. Further you'd be able to space out the scarfs so they fell at the flattest sections of the boat so there would be less shear forces trying to open up the joint over time.
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Old 02-03-2010, 16:06   #25
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I so agree with roverhi as to using teak instead of mahogany. It is about 28.00 a bf for 5/4 teak in Florida and I would guess it is about that in Texas. Mahogany will require close attention to the varnish, which will tend to fail at the scuppers you will cut and at those lap joints which will eventually work.

I also agree that it would be better to fill the old holes, mark their relative location on the decks and then drill new holes for the toerail. I also think that you should at least consider filling the hull to deck joint and glassing it while the old toerail is off. One universal weakness of Bristols is the hull to deck joint. This is the opportunity to make it right, make it stronger and make it leak proof. By simply replacing just the toerail you are making a lovely cosmetic improvement, but by itself you are not correcting the deficiencies in the whole hull /deck joint / toerail assembly. It sounds like you are on a tight budget but the toerail and the joint takes a real beating and this is a great opportunity to significantly improve it. Food for thought anyway.
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Old 02-03-2010, 16:36   #26
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Yeah but the whole rail, 81 linear ft milled and shipped from Annapolis, is only $520 in African Mahogany. Teak was close to 2 grand.
Just a thought; have you looked at Apitong (AKA Keruing)? Way cheaper than mahogany, twice as stong and 25% harder. They use it for truck beds so it tends to be fairly easy to find. You may find some locally so you don't have to pay for shipping. I used a lot of it years ago on a boat built of Honduras mahogany and could not tell the difference when varnished. Here's a shot of some rudders I made of the stuff recently

Best of luck,
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Old 02-03-2010, 17:26   #27
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I also agree that it would be better to fill the old holes, mark their relative location on the decks and then drill new holes for the toerail. I also think that you should at least consider filling the hull to deck joint and glassing it while the old toerail is off. One universal weakness of Bristols is the hull to deck joint.
I agree wholeheartedly, David, and there are a lot of things I would like my partner to do differently, but he holds the title. I am the process and logistics mate on this crew with sweat equity as my part in it. I've convinced him to use Sikaflex or G-flex (is that right?) in the joint rather than just caulk and bed it(rail). He is not willing to strip the boat down to the nubs (even tho I think he should), but he wants a refit, not a restoration. All I can do is provide enough supporting logic to convince him of necessity as we work each project. Our pockets aren't very deep.

SO....

We're purchasing the entire toerail pre-milled and ready for $520 (shipping incl). All we are doing is assembly, finishing, and installation reusing the existing structures and fixtures. We can afford new bolts, tho (), but we can't afford teak. If we could, it would be teak, not mahogany.

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have you looked at Apitong (AKA Keruing)? Way cheaper than mahogany, twice as stong and 25% harder.
Thanks, Mike, I'll look into that! Gotta call the yard again tomorrow anyway, I'll see if they have it.

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Unless you can transfer the holes accurately from the old rail to the new, reusing the old holes will be a major pain.
Yeah, that's going to be real fun. Unfortunately, I got a hull/deck joint bolt, it seems, every 4" down the line. With stanchions and plates mixed in, it's a wonder we ever got the damn thing deconstructed without a lot of destruction in the process (Even tho we broke every other bolt we came to ). I've never seen so much galling.

Ok....
As it is, we've gotten way off here as I was asking about steaming a 2.25x1.5 inch rail. As I have never performed this facet of woodworking, a little experienced insight would be nice. I got the box and jig covered but not the process.
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Old 02-03-2010, 18:31   #28
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Sounds very frustrating. See if you can "sell" the idea of at least replacing the hull to deck bolts, and if you can, then take them out, open up the joint and load it with 5200 with an air powered caulking gun, and re-fasten it tight tight. If the toerail bolts were that bad, then the hull to deck fasteners are just as bad.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:03   #29
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Yes it is. We only have the weekends to work as he lives 4 hours away and I live 1 hour away.

Yes, I think he intends on replacing the bolts, considering the amount of galling we had, but one at a time. He's fearful of separating the joint. What was that nasty stuff they used originally as sealant? Butyl? The only apparent H/D joint leakage seems to come from only 1 spot on the starboard side all the rest is ship shape. We have only 3-4 leaky spots; 1 is H/D and the rest are deck hardware and 1 shroud chainplate. He wants to clean out the exposed sealant topsides and fill the groove with G/Flex before replacing the rail.
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Old 03-03-2010, 14:39   #30
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Ok....
Tho we've gotten way off here, I was asking about steaming a 2.25x1.5 inch rail. As I have never performed this facet of woodworking, a little experienced insight would be nice. I got the box plans and jig covered but not the process.
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