Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-09-2009, 15:31   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 257
'Naval Architects and Designers Are a Waste of Money'

"Naval architects and designers are a waste of money!" - The WoodenBoat Forum

A tale of hubris, aesthetics, and easy credit...

Brett
__________________

__________________
LtBrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 20:49   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: "...barren elbow of sand..."
Boat: O'Day Daysailer 3
Posts: 186
Images: 3
WOW!

A fool and his money are soon parted.
__________________

__________________
Ishmael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 21:42   #3
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,872
Fantastic link and story about the lack of engineering and practical competency during the “feasibility stage” of a new design project.

I have seen the same launching outcome in Holland when a 48m super yacht designed by a famous NA slipped down the rails with the Brass band playing.

Slowly, slowly the stern went way below her marks causing the knowledgeable band to slow down in perfect accompaniment to her awkward position as she came to rest like a constipated duck.

Finally silence, no speeches and after they measured her floating marks, she was hauled up and disappeared into the shipyard for over a year

I would not say Naval Architects are a “waste of money”, instead I think of them as “Idea Men”. Pay them for their ideas but get independent engineering conformation of their structural, stability and performance calculations before proceeding with the build.

Get an experienced captain to look at the ergonomics of the design as it pertains to maintenance.
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 11:52   #4
Registered User
 
James S's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Yemen & Lebanon... the sailboat is in Lebenon, the dhow is in Yemen
Boat: 1978 CT48 & 65ft Cargo Dhow
Posts: 5,816
Images: 139
I may have to join that site just so I can see how that abomination floats....amazing that more than one person could think that was an attractive design....they are partners right!
__________________
James
S/V Arctic Lady
I love my boat, I can't afford not to!
James S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 21:26   #5
Registered User
 
mesquaukee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Western Caribbean & ocassionaly inCanada
Boat: Mesqua Ukee, Buccaneer 40 (Salar 40)
Posts: 480
I have dealt with a lot of architects and designers. They like to put a little stamp on every drawing saying that the contractor should verify every and all dimensions.

It would be nice to believe the "naval" prefix implied perfection.
__________________
mesquaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 22:04   #6
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
Is that like the fine print that says

will not be resposible for any errors or omissions in this report, no guarantee of operation/condition is blah blah blah

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesquaukee View Post
I have dealt with a lot of architects and designers. They like to put a little stamp on every drawing saying that the contractor should verify every and all dimensions.

It would be nice to believe the "naval" prefix implied perfection.
__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 04:05   #7
Registered User
 
mesquaukee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Western Caribbean & ocassionaly inCanada
Boat: Mesqua Ukee, Buccaneer 40 (Salar 40)
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
will not be resposible for any errors or omissions in this report, no guarantee of operation/condition is blah blah blah
It would appear they are all alike.
__________________
mesquaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 07:31   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
Blue Stocking's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Georges, Bda
Boat: Rhodes Reliant 41ft
Posts: 4,114
Come on Guys!!!!

One very respected Naval Architect who is a regular contributor to this forum has probably 100's of successful designs. A number of you are probably sailing his boats.
You can't paint them all with the same brush.
__________________
Blue Stocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 07:42   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eastern Seaboard
Boat: Searunner 34 and Searunner Constant Camber 44
Posts: 949
Quote:
I have dealt with a lot of architects and designers. They like to put a little stamp on every drawing saying that the contractor should verify every and all dimensions.
Which they should do, for several reasons.

Quote:
It would be nice to believe the "naval" prefix implied perfection.
Isn't that like saying there are good ones and bad ones, just like with every other profession?
__________________
Regards,

Maren

The sea is always beautiful, sometimes mysterious and, on occasions, frighteningly powerful.
Maren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 08:32   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
For those who feel architect's are not worth the fee, please be my guest and design your own boat, or building. Good luck.

Of course there are incompetent architects as there are incompetent dentists, skippers and bricklayers and marine surveyors. A title probably means that you managed to climb the ladder and make it through some gates.

There is more incompetence out there than you could imagine.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 09:37   #11
Registered User
 
mesquaukee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Western Caribbean & ocassionaly inCanada
Boat: Mesqua Ukee, Buccaneer 40 (Salar 40)
Posts: 480
A few bad apples.
__________________
mesquaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 09:53   #12
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
Come on Guys!!!!

One very respected Naval Architect who is a regular contributor to this forum has probably 100's of successful designs. A number of you are probably sailing his boats.
You can't paint them all with the same brush.
No, but you should not consider them as infallible and allow them to control the project.


As I said before, Naval Architects and Designers are “idea” people.

Where they get the client into trouble is when they feel they can also engineer and provide the design solutions during the production phase. Problem is… their rather small design staff has only theoretical rather than actual build experience and they make production mistakes at the clients or boat builder’s expense. (Finger pointing times).

The smart Designers realize this and confine themselves to conceptual drawings to illustrate their ideas and then they let the Builder work out the construction drawings based on their proven build methods and “as built” engineering experience.

Where screw-ups happen is when the Designer contractually has approval and his ego and industry politics get in the way of common sense engineering, so the Builder follows really stupid designer solutions by a design company that has no assets to back-up and insure their work. The client ultimately suffers.

On projects I do, I spend a lot of money and time up front, (before putting contract out to tender) doing a design and independent feasibility study so as to assure both the client and competing yards…. that we have actually done our homework, with the specific detail needed to allow the yards to give me a detailed costing .

I then negotiate a fixed price based on a “Design and Build Agreement” with the shipyard, where they are contractually bound to view all the drawing work and detail specifications we have given to them as “Contract Guidance drawings”.

They are still responsible to satisfy themselves that the engineering solutions will work and know that if there are any failures or cost over-runs…the buck stops with the Yard

In the end, it saves a lot of money on dramatically reduced “change orders” and assures a clear line of responsibility

The client gets exactly what he wants at the price agreed to and the actual build phase is somewhat anticlimactic, which helps me to maintain a positive relationship with the Builders and clients.
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 10:09   #13
Registered User
 
mesquaukee's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Western Caribbean & ocassionaly inCanada
Boat: Mesqua Ukee, Buccaneer 40 (Salar 40)
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
No, but you should not consider them as infallible and allow them to control the project.


As I said before, Naval Architects and Designers are “idea” people........
Take the naval away and you have described the exact same problem I have encountered in the building industry.
__________________
mesquaukee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 17:01   #14
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,571
Images: 240
According to Architect Frank Lloyd Wright, the physician can bury his mistakes, but the architect can only advise his clients to plant vines.

***

Apathy or Ignorance:

Boatowner to Contracting Boatbuilder: That's the lousiest construction I've ever seen! Is that because you're ignorant or apathetic?

Boatbuilder: Huh? I don't know what you mean.

Boatowner: Do you know the difference between ignorance and apathy?

Boatbuilder: No, but who cares?

***

Q: How many boatbuilders does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None. They simply redefine darkness as the industry standard.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 20:46   #15
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
Owner: I think I am going to install a backup GPS and get a Handheld Unit too.

Me: You'll either know exactly where you are lost, or will be in constant doubt of where you are.
__________________

__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
arc

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beneteau 50 Performance - Different Designers andreavanduyn Monohull Sailboats 2 16-08-2009 14:38
Need help on naval project!! depthofit Construction, Maintenance & Refit 57 16-01-2009 16:05
Naval Officer and Cruiser Alexei Meets & Greets 5 08-06-2008 01:22
North American Boat Designers Hall of Fame GordMay Cruising News & Events 2 17-03-2008 02:34
Engineers/Designers Needed LynnWestbrook Classifieds Archive 4 05-12-2007 03:51



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.