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Old 07-03-2013, 18:53   #406
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
While I agree with Minaret that some make polyester sound really bad while it isn't, you don't need to start worrying when using epoxy, apart for the extra money spent may be. I like epoxy because it is more natural to a geek like me (cleaner I like to think) but 90% of the projects I do, if not more, would be strong enough in polyester. My boat isn't polyester and thus I like to keep it away. I have polyester resin as part of "CopperClad" anti-fouling and it got blisters so I'm not friends with polyester
Yes, I've also heard the bad rap about polyester, e.g. old school, unhealthy, not as watertight, and of course all the negs. about "Bondo." I really don't have the knowledge or experience to make a judgment, and I've had pros like Minaret on both sides of the poly/epoxy debate. I do know I have my hands full as it is and would hate to have to re-gelcoat or paint portions of my deck that I've used epoxy on. Too bad there's not more of a consensus amongst the experts & mfgs. on the issue.
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Old 07-03-2013, 19:27   #407
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Very good. Don't get in over your head! And feel free to post any pics with questions here.
Might be to late for the whole "over my head thing" by a year I'm afraid.

I have 2 stainless tanks (pictured hopefully) that have a discoloration on the seams. It doesn't seem that bad but I'm getting ready to add a settee and helm station to the pilothouse and would rather not have to tear it out soon thereafter. Or ever.......

The tank won't fit out of the pilothouse, nor new ones in. Well not without hassles more than I'm willing to deal with.

So if not now, when?

My question is; What about the fuel fittings? Do you drill new ones through the completed project? Or do you bed them in at the start, which seems like a better method. Sorry if this is a stupid question, it's easier to ask though than to screw up.

Thanks bunches for your thread. The sticky got applause at my place.

It appears I'm only attaching one pic at a time.
John
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Old 07-03-2013, 19:32   #408
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

Here's the pilothouse as of today. I was putting in battery boxes and reconfiguring the floor beams in anticipation of a settee/chart table and a helm seat.
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Old 07-03-2013, 20:10   #409
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

My first settee.
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Old 07-03-2013, 20:53   #410
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Ha! I'm pretty sure I've been over my head since 2007 when I bought the boat! My first attempts at deck repair will be with small stuff that can be easily undone if . . . errr . . . I mean when I mess it up! You definitely made me more optimistic that I can avoid an expensive paint job for the decks for awhile, so I thank you for that.

What's next for the mighty N-Cat?!


Wise. I'll have to post some pics of projects already depicted closer to completion. Make sure to get the Roloc setup if you're doing small repairs. The 2" Roloc buffer attachment is really nice for things like polishing waterways too. It's also my secret weapon for polishing stainless or bronze. They can also do scotch brite, flapper wheels, needle sanders, etc. etc. They are 1/4" shaft for standard die grinders, but you can chuck one into just about anything.


roloc - Bing Images
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Old 07-03-2013, 20:55   #411
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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@Minaret -- This has been one of the most informative treatises I've read on fixing a boat the *right* way. Many thanks. A real wealth of information here. I've been doing a bit of my own repairs and till now I've stuck with West System as I've held onto the belief it will have better bond strength and therefore make up for a bit of my inexperience. I'm currently laying up a new floor panel for the head. I'm curious now as to what I've been missing with polyester layups. Keep up the flood of education. Good stuff.
-Tom


Thanks man. No doubt that epoxy provides a better bond.
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Old 07-03-2013, 21:05   #412
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
While I agree with Minaret that some make polyester sound really bad while it isn't, you don't need to start worrying when using epoxy, apart for the extra money spent may be. I like epoxy because it is more natural to a geek like me (cleaner I like to think) but 90% of the projects I do, if not more, would be strong enough in polyester. My boat isn't polyester and thus I like to keep it away. I have polyester resin as part of "CopperClad" anti-fouling and it got blisters so I'm not friends with polyester


Nothing wrong with using vinylester resin to fix your vinylester boat either. Like I said earlier, I'm all about continuity of materials. I think some of the failures I have seen are caused by this. For instance, in the example of the poly gel on an epoxy layup you posted a vid on. The reason I think a test immediately after making the part is fairly meaningless is because I think the problem is in part that the epoxy lam keeps slowly blushing very small amounts of amines long term, but also that the two materials have dissimilar rates of expansion and contraction. The two problems exacerbate each other and lead to long term failure. I believe the same thing can happen with a repair. The epoxy repair is twice as stiff for the same layup as the poly material it is replacing. This results in stress risers in the faying edge of the repair, exactly where you don't want it. Destructively test a panel repaired like this in shear and it will break right at the edge of the repair every time. I often go to great lengths to match fiber continuity to the original laminate schedule, why wouldn't I also match the original resin, or at least a more modern equivalent that has very similar properties?
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Old 07-03-2013, 21:14   #413
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Yes, I've also heard the bad rap about polyester, e.g. old school, unhealthy, not as watertight, and of course all the negs. about "Bondo." I really don't have the knowledge or experience to make a judgment, and I've had pros like Minaret on both sides of the poly/epoxy debate. I do know I have my hands full as it is and would hate to have to re-gelcoat or paint portions of my deck that I've used epoxy on. Too bad there's not more of a consensus amongst the experts & mfgs. on the issue.


Consensus is rare in the boat building field. Everyone has their opinion. I try to give you mine unvarnished and support it with pics and well reasoned argument. Others will do the same. At least here on the forum I believe that's a good thing, though I'm sure it's confusing for some. I will just reiterate, I love me some epoxy and I use the hell out of it. I've built large boats in epoxy. I just think that for many people who may be trying to refit on a budget by doing the work themselves, like me, time can be a huge issue. Working in poly is much faster than epoxy, and yields good professional results when done well too. And materials cost a small fraction as much as well. These are all factors which should not be overlooked IMHO.
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Old 07-03-2013, 22:04   #414
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Nothing wrong with using vinylester resin to fix your vinylester boat either. Like I said earlier, I'm all about continuity of materials.
Agreed; this is why I love the 3M vinylester repair and fairing compounds; super easy to use and super fast cure. I believe they work pretty well on polyester hulls too
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Old 07-03-2013, 22:22   #415
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Get a 1" Roloc grinder setup...
I don't have that and they don't sell it here in Panama for some weird reason (like they don't sell PEX tubing and fittings...).

I also think I'll have more control with my palm Makita sander or I have all kinds of sanding and grinding attachments for my Fein Multimaster. I'll give that a try first
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Old 07-03-2013, 23:19   #416
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Agreed; this is why I love the 3M vinylester repair and fairing compounds; super easy to use and super fast cure. I believe they work pretty well on polyester hulls too
Any issues getting gelcoat to adhere after using these products?
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Old 07-03-2013, 23:22   #417
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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I don't have that and they don't sell it here in Panama for some weird reason (like they don't sell PEX tubing and fittings...).

I also think I'll have more control with my palm Makita sander or I have all kinds of sanding and grinding attachments for my Fein Multimaster. I'll give that a try first
I was thinking of using my Dremel with similar sorts of attachments, but mainly because that's what I already have. The die grinder probably makes more sense for Minaret who's likely putting more miles on these tools in a week than I would in a year.
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Old 07-03-2013, 23:34   #418
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Agreed; this is why I love the 3M vinylester repair and fairing compounds; super easy to use and super fast cure. I believe they work pretty well on polyester hulls too


It's been my experience that Premium Filler cures about half as fast as poly products, just like vinylester resin cures slower than poly. It's also much harder to sand. Great for below the waterline when you don't want to use epoxy though.
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Old 07-03-2013, 23:41   #419
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I don't have that and they don't sell it here in Panama for some weird reason (like they don't sell PEX tubing and fittings...).

I also think I'll have more control with my palm Makita sander or I have all kinds of sanding and grinding attachments for my Fein Multimaster. I'll give that a try first


You can order a few for a couple of bucks each easy. Your missing the point with your palm sander, it's footprint is way too big and it's not aggressive enough. The Roloc will grind aggressively in a very small spot without getting coarse grit scratches which will then be impossible to remove all over the place. It dishes out a repair perfectly, just like a bigger grinder, except its teeny. The Fein is great for cutting but I never use one for sanding, it'd take ten times as long and not do anywhere near as good a job.
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Old 07-03-2013, 23:44   #420
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Any issues getting gelcoat to adhere after using these products?


Nope, gel sticks fine to 3M Premium Filler, which is their vinylester filler. It's hard as nails though.
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