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Old 05-03-2013, 17:14   #361
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Isn't it 15 to a pack?

Steve


Well, now, that makes a little more sense. I wouldn't have been surprised by the other either given the price of some of their fittings though...
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:16   #362
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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No pull, just asked nicely. I think? There is just to much good information in this thread to let it get lost.

So, thank you for all the time you have spent documenting your refit.


You're welcome. Thanks for your advocacy.
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:17   #363
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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He promised all the mods you would polish our hull topsides



I would too. Just bring your boat on up to Seattle and I'll make her real shiny!
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:37   #364
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Minaret -- during your tank rebuild, you discussed using various types of glass cloth as well as mat. By the latter, I assume you mean chopped strand mat. Woud you mind briefly describing when you would use one vs. the other? Are there types of mat that are compatible with epoxy resin vs. the iso that you used? What goes into your decisions to use different wgts. of cloth?

I'm obviously new to this world so excuse the elementary school level questions. Or is it kindergarden level??

Yup, I mean CSM by matt. Usually use 1.5 oz, standard stuff. Generally you would only use matt by itself if you are only trying to create a water barrier, it's not very strong. It is meant to be used in conjunction with other materials in a laminate. In a poly layup the usual method is to put a layer of matt between each ply of your other material, particularly woven roving, to help fill the coarse weave and prevent voids in the laminate. If you used just roving with no matt you'd have a ton of small voids in the layup unless you bagged it. That's why a lot of materials that are already stitched, like many double bias materials, have a matt already stitched on to one side. That way you don't have to take the time to fit a matt as well, it's already there. Another basic concept is that matt will air roll nicely whereas roving or DB do not. This means you roll out air bubbles with a roller on matt layers, and squeegee excess resin out of the lam on roving or DB layers. This another reason that you usually always want to finish a layup with one or two matt layers, there are several others.

Yes, there is such a thing as matt that is "epoxy compatible". However, it really sucks to use IMO. The problem with matt and epoxy is that the binder that holds matt together is usually starch, just like the dry cleaner does a collar. It takes five or ten minutes for poly resin to dissolve the starch, giving you plenty of time to get the matt to lay down where you want it. With epoxy the starch is dissolved instantly, and the matt absorbs much too much resin, leaving you with a sticky mess. So, to make matt epoxy compatible, they use a different binder and stitch the matt like a DB. This of course defeats some of the advantages of matt, such as the ability to tear it instead of cutting it. It is not really needed for a good epoxy layup anyway, for a number of reasons. A heavy epoxy laminate and a heavy poly laminate are two totally different animals. I'll hold forth on laminating more later with pics. Hopefully some others will chime in as well. No question too "kindergarten" for this thread.
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:42   #365
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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That does make sense. Thanks for the insight. I have never really liked bladder tanks. I guess I need to figure out how to get better access to the tank. At the moment a 15 inch inspection plate is all I have.


Post a pic or two and we'll talk about which method of replacement would be best for you. Happy to try to help!
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Old 05-03-2013, 19:37   #366
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yup, I mean CSM by matt. Usually use 1.5 oz, standard stuff. Generally you would only use matt by itself if you are only trying to create a water barrier, it's not very strong. It is meant to be used in conjunction with other materials in a laminate. In a poly layup the usual method is to put a layer of matt between each ply of your other material, particularly woven roving, to help fill the coarse weave and prevent voids in the laminate. If you used just roving with no matt you'd have a ton of small voids in the layup unless you bagged it. That's why a lot of materials that are already stitched, like many double bias materials, have a matt already stitched on to one side. That way you don't have to take the time to fit a matt as well, it's already there. Another basic concept is that matt will air roll nicely whereas roving or DB do not. This means you roll out air bubbles with a roller on matt layers, and squeegee excess resin out of the lam on roving or DB layers. This another reason that you usually always want to finish a layup with one or two matt layers, there are several others.

Yes, there is such a thing as matt that is "epoxy compatible". However, it really sucks to use IMO. The problem with matt and epoxy is that the binder that holds matt together is usually starch, just like the dry cleaner does a collar. It takes five or ten minutes for poly resin to dissolve the starch, giving you plenty of time to get the matt to lay down where you want it. With epoxy the starch is dissolved instantly, and the matt absorbs much too much resin, leaving you with a sticky mess. So, to make matt epoxy compatible, they use a different binder and stitch the matt like a DB. This of course defeats some of the advantages of matt, such as the ability to tear it instead of cutting it. It is not really needed for a good epoxy layup anyway, for a number of reasons. A heavy epoxy laminate and a heavy poly laminate are two totally different animals. I'll hold forth on laminating more later with pics. Hopefully some others will chime in as well. No question too "kindergarten" for this thread.
Very helpful -- clears up some basic confusion that I nad not been able to find elsewhere. For any others who might be in grade school with me here, the West Systems manuals also provide pretty clear direction on tackling various common repairs (using epoxy).

I recently bought some 6 oz. bias cloth in anticipation of covering a 1" machined hole in my cockpit combing where the shore water hookup used to run. I only chose 6 oz. because it was described as "medium density" so it seemed like a safe bet. Wthout matt, I guess the trick with an epoxy lay-up is making sure you get all the air out. Thanks again for taking the time to respond to this stuff (after your 12-hr. days!).
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Old 05-03-2013, 19:45   #367
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

No problem, happy to oblige. I think the current craze for epoxy does a disservice to most boat owners. If people took the time to develop some basic fiberglass and gelcoat skills they could often save a ton of money. Things are so much quicker in poly resin, and after all that's how it was built in the first place. I'm all about continuity of materials. I've taught this stuff to some pretty thick characters over the years in the yard, it's not rocket science. I think the average boat owner is probably capable of a lot more than they might think with a little coaching and some determination. Seems like many would rather pay someone else and then bitch about how much it cost though...



Don't worry about my time, LOL! Every time I take a break or have to wait for something to cure I'm on the iPad in my pilothouse. Modern tech is cool. Every time someone responds to this thread I get a little bleep in my pocket. Keeps me from getting bored.
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Old 05-03-2013, 19:57   #368
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

What would suggest for minor fairing on my Epoxy boat ?? Yes thats what I said epoxy shes a custom bilt from epoxy beads and like that !
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Old 05-03-2013, 20:37   #369
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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What would suggest for minor fairing on my Epoxy boat ?? Yes thats what I said epoxy shes a custom bilt from epoxy beads and like that !


Why, more epoxy, Bob! I like WEST System with 407.
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Old 05-03-2013, 20:40   #370
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

Sorry bout that "Brain Fart" I should have thought for a second before I typed that one LOL Of course epoxy DUH
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Old 05-03-2013, 20:43   #371
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Sorry bout that "Brain Fart" I should have thought for a second before I typed that one LOL Of course epoxy DUH


No, no. There's epoxy and then there's Epoxy. You want to use the good stuff. If you're not sure what the good stuff is, then asking is the thing to do. No brain fart there.
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Old 05-03-2013, 21:14   #372
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

It was bilt with West Products, what else would I think of useing ! I still wonder who bilt these boats? can't get anybody to own up to it LOL Ive seen one other and talked to a fella on here who has one and was gonna get back to me but has not as yet! Love this old slab but she is different LOL
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Old 05-03-2013, 21:16   #373
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
No problem, happy to oblige. I think the current craze for epoxy does a disservice to most boat owners. If people took the time to develop some basic fiberglass and gelcoat skills they could often save a ton of money. Things are so much quicker in poly resin, and after all that's how it was built in the first place. I'm all about continuity of materials. I've taught this stuff to some pretty thick characters over the years in the yard, it's not rocket science. I think the average boat owner is probably capable of a lot more than they might think with a little coaching and some determination. Seems like many would rather pay someone else and then bitch about how much it cost though...



Don't worry about my time, LOL! Every time I take a break or have to wait for something to cure I'm on the iPad in my pilothouse. Modern tech is cool. Every time someone responds to this thread I get a little bleep in my pocket. Keeps me from getting bored.
You are quite generous.

I'm glad you raised the subject of using poly vs. epoxy, and your comment about continuity in materials also has me intrigued. I also took note of another thread where you described the process of restoring old gelcoat at the point where so many boat owners opt for an expensive paint job instead. I've been advised, for e.g., how to use West Systems to fill in all the small dings, dents & cracks on my gelcoat decks. But then I will have to gelcoat over them to prevent UV damage. Gelcoat is just a type of pigmented poly resin, right? So won't there be adhesion issues trying to get poly to bond with the underlying epoxy?
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Old 05-03-2013, 22:18   #374
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

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You are quite generous.

I'm glad you raised the subject of using poly vs. epoxy, and your comment about continuity in materials also has me intrigued. I also took note of another thread where you described the process of restoring old gelcoat at the point where so many boat owners opt for an expensive paint job instead. I've been advised, for e.g., how to use West Systems to fill in all the small dings, dents & cracks on my gelcoat decks. But then I will have to gelcoat over them to prevent UV damage. Gelcoat is just a type of pigmented poly resin, right? So won't there be adhesion issues trying to get poly to bond with the underlying epoxy?

Yes, there would. WEST will tell you it can be done but don't go there unless you tie coat with a modified epoxy primer like 545 first, which defeats the purpose in most cases. Poly doesn't like to cure properly when exposed to amines. There are better ways to do that sort of thing anyhow. If you just grind and epoxy fill a stress crack it will eventually come back every time. I grind and glass all fractures and cracks with poly, glassing a little high, grind fair, and brush gelcoat as a primer. I use a good quality poly filler for little stuff. And for big stuff I will roll on multiple coats of gelcoat and sand it out fair like hi build.



In this pic there's a repair that's just been shot with color matched gel under the piece of blue tape. It's still wet. When it's been wet sanded and polished it'll look like new again. Gelcoat is more work to maintain, but at least it can be maintained, unlike paint. I suppose that's misleading, I shoot loads of paint blends too, but that is not really for the layman. I can show you how to shoot gelcoat blends like this without even using a gun or a compressor. Can be done anywhere, no special tools required.
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Old 05-03-2013, 22:24   #375
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Re: Nauticat 52 Refit

Before spraying. This is just a typical small gouge filled, faired, and prepped for blending color matched gel.
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