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Old 04-07-2008, 05:04   #1
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My Rebuild-The REAL costs-Scare me now.

Hi All,
Thanks very much to all those who have contributed to giving me such valuable information on my 40 ft steel motor sailer rebuild project so far.For the unitiated ( me and plenty of others I'm sure) it is a very scary job but as I go forward with the help it is becoming a little less daunting.

OK -So far I have the hull up on a hard stand and have been gutting it back to a shell.Just about to get into the hull replating where needed then move on up to the superstructure redesign and new decking.
Have been lucky to buy myself a really good industrial compressor (set up for sandblasting ) on a trailer and have just purchased a Clemco sandblaster, helmet and 2 pro paint pots small and large.Cost was $3,000:00 all up so very happy.Happy to also help out a couple of others who might need some blasting done if in my area or close by in the future too as a universal type "pay it back process" for forum members.Cover my costs only,not for profit.-But will accept boat building advice/help in return
Anyhoo!- I would like to ask for some more advice in regards to some sort of budget I need to work towards in regards to the more expensive items/activities I need to work towards.

What I have.
A basically well built original 40 ft steel hull-soon to be replated where necessary.
All the materials I need to rebuild the superstructure/pilot house/decks.
A good HRW3 40 hp Lister diesel with all the bells and whistles and (2) gearboxes.
A 40 ft timber mast.Looks to be in good condition but seeking advice on whether it is worth using it or going new alloy ?
A reasonable amount of s/steel standing rigging.
Hydraulic steering components,wheel, morse controls hoses etc.
Funds for all the paint and sundry items to get it up to basic lock up.
Items above for the blasting/painting and all tools,welders,plasma cutters. etc.
Plenty of open space,power, workshop,cheap rent for some time yet.
A healthy dose of passion and positive energy,some good people around me that will help and a good partner behind me.

What I would like to know- in general approx costs and if anyone can have a reasonable stab at an all up ballpark $$ cost please do.
Costs to:
Set up mast/sails/rigging in general.( motor sailer ).
Buy second hand or go new ?
Safety gear -radios,EPIRBS.???
Electricals- lighting,power,batteries,internal/ext.
Plumbing- water/fuel tanks,head,shower,galley,???
NB. Am a licensed plumber,drainer and LPG fitter so labour costs should be reduced in this case a bit.
Now I can understand why everyone used to say "gee- you bloody plumbers are really expensive"
Like me they just hadn't been into any boat shops or knew the real costs involved in boat building.!!
Fitting out- Carpentry Galley,Saloon front v berths, aft cabin,pilot house.
Like asking how long is a bit of string I know but some indicative average costs if anyone knows would be good.
What type of other costs for fittings like windlass's/furlers/hatches/vents/s/steel railings etc should I be looking at.?

We are both in early fifties,reasonable fit, healthy and keen.Novices as far as sailing goes but I have done a light amount of twilighting on a few 40 footers and I may remember a few things.We plan to enrol in a sailing school this spring/summer. Have been a water person ( surfer/scuba etc ) all my life so not scared but respect the ocean well.I would love to think we will sail off up the coast and keep going one day but we need to be realistic too.Maybe we will end up just being "coasters " going up and down the East Coast of Aussie.?

With that view we probably dont really need all the whiz bang gismos straight away on our boat but would love to know what we should be planning to budget for in the future.If we can just get it back into the water and do a bit of general sailing it will be a start.
Having said that I plan to take my time and do this as well as I can and do not plan to take any shortcuts in place of safety or quality.

Again ,thanks for your help and advice.

With respect.

John.
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:01   #2
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G'day John,

Thought you were a bit busy (hadn't seen you post for a little while )

The person that comes to mind with answering your questions is "cooper" (from VIC).

I'm not sure how much help I can be on your questions. I've got no intention of physically building my boat myself, I'm using the pro's there (although I will learn to cut/sew the gaff sails). Even though I have nearly 10yrs commercial experience, I know what goes into a boat & its a lot!

On the safety equipment & electronics, I'd prefer to only buy new flares, but would buy a serviced raft & certified life vests. Any 2nd hand electronics would have to be serviced before I'd touch 'em.

I'm sure there'll be other answers.

Good luck!
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:47   #3
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Hi John,
This site may help you a little ..... This fellow built his own boat in his backyard.

While I have never build a boat from scratch, I think I would go with used for things that do not deteriate with age ... things like cleats, aluminum masts and spars. Things that deteriate with age I would probably go with new .... you know things like sails. Other things you might purchase used then rebuild the worn parts .... things like a stove, watermaker, windless or wenches.

Anyway, goodluck and post some pictures as the work progresses.
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:49   #4
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Sorry about that John, that site is: Home
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:58   #5
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New v's second hand...

I found that the asking price for second hand gear ran about two thirds of new.

Given the questionable quality and that it never suited exactly what I wanted I went with almost all new.

I'd suggest that budgeting $100 - $150k and 5,500 hours would not be out of line.
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:59   #6
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Scary head your holding there.!!

Hi exman,
How are you.
Been out with the sharks I see ?.I've just come back from seeing the my bank manager.The interest rates they charge these days -they are the real sharks-like to cut his head off sometimes.!!
Yeah, have been flat out like a lizard and not much time to spend on the boat lately but am taking a few weeks off soon to hit it solidly.Been buying up some goodies to get cracking.Now looking for a bit of old fashioned advice from here to get me thinking a bit more about different ideas/ processes/ values.

Am already on the hunt for some answers with Cooper.
Where are you old salt ?
Sent you a pm email you busy beaver ??

Mobetah,
Thanks- I will check out that site

Cheers.

John.
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:22   #7
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Boracay,
Hi.
The hours look pretty close.Hope the $$$ are a bit out,otherwise its a case of taking my grandchildren to the bank manager and leaving them as a deposit some time down the track.
Either that or pulling out the plumbing tools to work again.!!
I was hoping I might be able to get out of it at around $60 K excluding what I items I already had in hand but you may be on the money.

Be interesting to see what answers come through but it is a hard question to answer in general.

PS.
On a related point.
If I remember you have had some solid experience in painting/rust /corrosion control in doing up your boat.?
In your opinion what do you suggest is a good paint to use.?
Do you know of the brand POR-15 by Permanent Painted Coatings.?
Reason I ask is that I looked at their website and it looked like it had good history.It's also next door to my friends factory in Sydney so not far away.

Regards
John.
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:25   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john connell View Post
Been out with the sharks I see ?.
Yeah, I got yarning to a bloke up the UK way who did some sharking outta NT years ago The threads had to be moved (as we were sharking in the geeky computer forum ) & kinda got a bit muddled up

Quote:
I've just come back from seeing the my bank manager.The interest rates they charge these days -they are the real sharks-like to cut his head off sometimes.!!
There's talk in the paper of them going up again. All the corporates are taking up the available credit.

Quote:
Am already on the hunt for some answers with Cooper.
Where are you old salt ?
He was here the other day, probably just busy.

I'm not sure if it's of any help, but here's a couple of things I'm doing to reduce my costs for a 35' LOD design:
  • gaff rigging with purchase blocks (I'm still young so can pull those lines )
  • learn to cut/sew me own sails (with a sailrite)
  • only braided rope where needed, else use 3 strand
  • galvanized rigging
  • painted interior
There's other little things too, such as manual water pumps (exception to shower) & other simpler construction stuff I've already told you in other posts. Not sure where I'll build, chances are the cheapest assembly of a cnc kit might be Thailand (a Kiwi operated boat building outfit). I'll use a reputable NA to go through my idea's & put it into maxsurf & see what happens.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:32   #9
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When I built my boat, the common wisdom said that the finished floating part was two-thirds the work and one third the cost. I suspect the same wisdom applies today. It's probably not a good idea to take shortcuts on the hull and superstructure, but you can reduce costs on the equipment by simply not buying a lot of stuff at first, catching sales that arrive down the road, or simply deciding that some things are unnecessary luxuries for the moment.

Basically, I think that we, who own boats and dream of sailing over the horizon, are madmen (and women). We get to embrace the concept by not using linear logic all the time, letting the romance and passion take hold of our psyches, and do the best we can to get where we want to go.

And what you are doing is a hell of a lot more interesting than pulling a cart of golfclubs around an expensive park, and searching for a little white ball in the weeds. At least, in my perverted mind.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:24   #10
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Quote:
Other things you might purchase used then rebuild the worn parts .... things like a stove, watermaker, windless or wenches
I got mine used but was unaware the worn parts could be rebuilt.

Mike
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Old 04-07-2008, 13:56   #11
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Hi Mike,

Your right. You can replace the worn parts of your Winches. Replacing the worn parts on Wenches requires the services of a good plastic surgeon.

Bill
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Old 04-07-2008, 14:41   #12
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A lot depends on how lavishly you fit out the interior. Simple ply and paint is the cheapest. If you can get some nice dark wood cheap for trim it can look very nice if done well. Build in your tanks. On a steel boat many tanks are built in to the keel area thus keeping weight low and costs down. Just provide good access to all compartments. Don't build in gray and black holding tanks.

Many thing can be purchased on ebay or like auction sites, but be careful.

If your mast is in good shape use it. You may want to replace it later on but use it for a while and then make up your mind. A good wood mast can last a long time if it is fitted out properly and all end grain coated well with epoxy, then painted well, and all fitting screws set into an epoxy anulus(sp).
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Old 04-07-2008, 17:46   #13
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Painting/corrosion control...

I have seen many good reports on POR-15. However some key drawbacks might be:-
It is very expensive, particularly for a boat your size.
It has a very hard finish and looks to be difficult to overcoat so touchups and repairs are possibly problematic.

No one wants to talk about paint systems on a steel yacht. My ongoing experience is that above the waterline for touch ups - grind back with Dremmel, treat with tannic acid, prime with straight 5:1 epoxy resin and overcoat with single pack white polyurethane. I'm not going to win the local concours d'elegance though.

If I was in your position I would go with
Exterior:- two pack high build epoxy primer (multiple coats below waterline)
- vinyl primer below waterline
- single pack polyurethane elsewhere.
Interior:- two pack epoxy high build primer
- spot prime all places where water might pool with 5:1 epoxy resin (no thinner) then wash and rinse with scourers.
- top coat with single pack exterior epoxy enamel

No paint company in their right mind would suggest this but I like it.

On a different note you are gong to be putting a fair bit of your life into this boat and the Lister that you are planning to use is really too small and old.
You boat is going to be a motorsailer so a much more serious engine/gearbox is indicated. I went with the John Deere 4045D/ZF63 at 85hp (75 continuous) but there are other good alternatives.

I know you are concerned about cost but you really do not have to install the engine for a couple more years. Budget for a total engine package of $30k with the actual engine being $18k.
You will have to install the engine bearers and allow for the exhaust system (4" for the John Deere!) soon.
Believe me, you will bless every cent that you put into a good engine.

I'd also suggest thinking about fuel tanks at this stage. A couple of really big inbuilt mains and a 50 litre day tank would be nice.

I'm currently installing a forward polyethylene water tank to trim the nose down a bit.
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Old 04-07-2008, 19:09   #14
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3 Years into a rebuild

A very brief summary on my project.

I am about three years into a rebuild on my boat. I have taken a leave of absence for the final push, I estimate a further 6 month full time. The problem is when ever I am asked I say about 6 months and that was about 2 months ago. I have become skilled at frp work, through this project the only problem is I probably will never do something like this again.

I purchased a Katrina damaged boat, trucked up to San Diego from the gulf.

My original assessment was that it would cost me 75K including the purchase of the boat and trucking. It is going to be more like 135K when done.

What is complete is:
The hull is back in shape faired (fairing took along time and my shoulders have not been as big since my early surfing days) with barrier coat.
New rudder built and installed.
Mast partner rebuilt.
Strengthened the hull deck join all around
3/4 of the interior gutted
New shaft installed
Rebuilt the Lehman engine ready to install.
Purchased most of the stuff needed to complete. What really helped here was having a plan in advance so when I found a deal I new that it would work into the boat rather than modifying the boat for the gear.

I am currently working on deck getting ready to install new port-light and hatches. LP the deck then install all of the hardware.

Then inside a short list:
Removing all of the SS water and diesel tanks. Building in epoxy.
Interior structural and non structural bulk heads.
Electrical and plumbing systems.
Finish carpentry and the rest.

I would spend money on my rig (mast and standing) make sure that your SS standing stuff is good. Do not know what costs are like in Aus for spars my stick is 69' long cost including wire and all the hardware was 23K.

I have wood products to purchase, ply, veneers, handles, catches etc.

The boat will be as new when finished.
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Old 05-07-2008, 00:11   #15
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My ongoing experience is that above the waterline for touch ups - grind back with Dremmel, treat with tannic acid, prime with straight 5:1 epoxy resin and overcoat with single pack white polyurethane.
Thanks for that data. Was wondering what a good process would be if I scratched a metal hull in some very remote region.

Quote:
You boat is going to be a motorsailer so a much more serious engine/gearbox is indicated. I went with the John Deere 4045D/ZF63 at 85hp (75 continuous) but there are other good alternatives.
I've been looking at the Iveco's. They don't have the wet cylinders like the Deere's. They start at 57hp @ 2500rpm 3 cylinder continuous duty. I'm thinking about having the engine room & house designed so that the engine (with box attached) can be lifted in & out on a permanent frame (something else to have designed ) for rebuilds (which are very far & few on a sailboat) etc, the frame will then be mounted to the hull (vs the engine). Anther reason I was thinking this was so that I could mount an external shaft onto the front of the crank & run magnetic electric clutches for other things such as sea pumps, hydraulics (anchor), cruising alternator etc

Quote:
I'd also suggest thinking about fuel tanks at this stage. A couple of really big inbuilt mains and a 50 litre day tank would be nice.
I agree. Take as much fuel as you can. Personally, I'm kinda putting engineering ahead of living space.
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