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Old 05-07-2008, 00:31   #16
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Hi John,
I can give you actual costs if you like !! But take heart...it does not have to be super expensive. You can control the costs to a large degree. It really depends on what you are after.

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What you see in this picture(and I have posted it many times before) is a section of my saloon and galley. The materials are all either second hand (from the rubbish !!) or industrial. Its up to you. Buy new if you want , but ask yourself the questions. How much better will it be? Will it look any better ? Would I be better off spending the money else where? How about spending your money on a combined radar/chart plotter/depth sounder. $2100 Australian for the lot !! Brand new. You can buy second hand sails in good condition. EPIRB $400. VHF $150 to $300. Check ebay and make sure it has the Australian frequencys.
Stove ? get a caravan one for next to nix, oh bummer its not 316 stainless...who cares.!! If it needs replacing at some stage $ 50 bucks will get you another one.....your a plumber right ? then the rest is free !! Same with the plumbing. DONT go marine its just not worth it. Do a good job with good materials. That sink bowl in the pic is the actual bowl part of a standard twin bowl full/ half sink. (the half bowl bit) free off the side of the road. BETTER than marine because its deep. You dont have to buy everything now. Get the boat on the water so its safe and reasonably comfortable and then see what you want or need. (AND how much CRAP you end up throwing off.)
Make the hatches ( i have written an article on that one), make the vents. Furler or piston hanks....depends on how much money you have at the time ...easy decision. You can still sail though. Second hand manual windlass on ebay....around $500. Winches good luck !! and when you find them dont tell anybody.....

hope that helps for starters. Happy to give you "How too" information if it is of use...




Sorry you asked how much ?? Well it depends on how good you are a "seeing that a shopping mall stainless bollard is really a steering wheel pedestal" !!!
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Old 05-07-2008, 00:50   #17
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....try sending another pm John...nothing has come through anywhere ...
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:48   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooper View Post
Hi John,
I can give you actual costs if you like !! But take heart...it does not have to be super expensive. You can control the costs to a large degree. It really depends on what you are after.

Attachment 4198
G'day cooper, I'm very impressed!

I think I should take some tips from you. I was thinking of budgeting about 300k (or 400k+) for myself (& no finance as I'm going places (& seasons) that I probably won't get insurance for)
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:02   #19
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You never get back from a boat what you put in (in terms of dollars and labour). So why spend huge amounts of money when you dont need to. If you want to spend money, get an extra EPIRB. Do your storm boards have lanyards to stop them getting washed overboard $5! Strong is good. Tonights project was putting in the "skirting boards" between the bench in the pic and the identical one on the other side.
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Varnish nice stuff but what you really need for skirting boards on a "working boat" is ....scrap stainless !!! You can kick the **** out of it. No scratches no paint problems, just a 100mm high strip of stainless screwed to your sensitive parts.....old industrial kitchen benches/wall plates...whatever...it all does fine....Oh bummer its 304 not 316......who cares I am going to be kickin it not lickin it..

By the way that companionway rail to the let of the pic is the top of a bus seat. stainless of course. It has two holes in it where the seat back used to screw up too. Its not that the holes are a problem there not, its just that I havnt worked out what is meant to attach to them ....and there will be ...there always is. I see my pile of junk as a jigsaw of a boat. I just need to use my imagination to put the pieces together. I think it works.....but then I would ; )
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:36   #20
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Aye, another good example & some good advice Sir Cooper.

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Originally Posted by cooper View Post
You never get back from a boat what you put in (in terms of dollars and labour). So why spend huge amounts of money when you dont need to. If you want to spend money, get an extra EPIRB.
I agree. Fact is, at this point, I only have a ball park figure. In the end, it might be less, dunno.

Quote:
Varnish nice stuff but what you really need for skirting boards on a "working boat" is ....scrap stainless !!! You can kick the **** out of it. No scratches no paint problems, just a 100mm high strip of stainless screwed to your sensitive parts.....old industrial kitchen benches/wall plates...whatever...it all does fine....Oh bummer its 304 not 316......who cares I am going to be kickin it not lickin it..
Yup! I like rugged (but clean & tidy) & seaworthy boats. Use to crew on a pretty type of fish boat once, was forever polishing stuff etc
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Old 05-07-2008, 05:52   #21
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Food for thought.

All,
Thanks for your input and feedback.
Fantastic.

Borocay,
Good points on the POR-15.It is fairly costly but my gut feeling is it is a fairly substantial product.Heard a bit about International paints also.At this stage as I haver picked up my industrial compressor and Clemco blaster/paint units etc for a song ( $3,000 all up ) the paint cost is not as important as it was when I was looking at having to hire in a blaster contractor.Now I have then I can do it at my leisure and save some bucks.
Re :Motor
Are you sure that I should reconsider the 40 hp Lister ??.As motors are not my thing I will look/listen very carefully but at approx 10 tonne finished weight and them being a good torquey motor I am told was hoping this would suffice.At $4,000 all up with everything it seems like a good deal.
Haven't actually taken up the deal yet but was going to.

exfishnz,
Hey, you must have been on the same wave length as me to a point.Because I am thinking hard about the motor set up and am going to design a new pilot house( centre cab similar to what was on it before I chopped it's head off ) I am looking at going for some sort of rooftop that can come off if I ever have to remove the motor.Bolted on at each of 4 corners of pilot house and at aft end a sliding s/s bar inside a bar that actually slides out and becomes a " now you see it now you don't" bimini frame.Out there I know but I am going to toss it up in the air and see what comes of it.Bit like an umbrella.?
Your idea seems to have heaps of merit.Engineering wise it makes perfect sense but would it work on the angles it would need sitting up on a frame too ?.Would love to hear more about your idea and others opinions on that beauty.You have a budget of $300 K.??
Wow!! you should find or build a grand boat for that

Cooper,
Hi,good to hear from you again.Will send another pm and hope it gets through this time.Do have a few gremlins in my computer now and then.
You could be my long lost brother with your scavenging phsyche.All my life I have used the trading post ( guitar collector/House renovations ).Actually had a company registered called" Bower Bird Second Hand building materials" back a decade or so ago.This boat and most everything for it so far has been collected from ebay. I'm a scavenger from way back and am a dedicated recycler.The old abbatoir my boat is sitting in has steel/stainless everywhere.
FREE.The old bloke who owns it wonders why I am walking around with a gleam in my eye and a dribble on my chin.Like Alladins cave this place I swear.Love to hear some more about your project.
Catch up soon.
PS What paint did you use.?

Stevens 47.
Sounds like you have a really great project going.My boat didnt go through a hurricane but it looks like it should have. The $152.50 I paid for it on ebay is still something my partner and I joke about.Best part about it was it was floating when I bought it,with a good Yanmar motor and lots of other goodies to boot.It should come together fairy well in the end.
I am really curious about the mast set up for yachts.

DeepFrz,
Thanks.
Everyone seems to agree in the building in of tanks.?
The timber mast I was given is 39-40 ft and very good condition with no rot at all and quite solid.Agree it would save me a lot of money up front if everyone thinks it will suffice for a while.Happy to spend the time sanding it/epoxy coating etc if this gives me some time to save up for an alloy one.
Will this length mast suit a 40 motor sailer and should I seek professional advice on the set up I need to actually install. ?

RoyM.
Perfectly put in every way.
I agree.Have never been a golfer and the thought of chasing a bloody pockmarked ball over the fields is not my idea of stress relief.
However wenches with winches is a new ballgame I could get into.
Not in the pub getting pissed and not on drugs-another good thing.!

mikereed100 and mobetah.
What can I say.?Classic comebacks.
You two are funny -and quick.

Cheers to all.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:00   #22
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I offer the suggestion that your fuel tanks (and all other tanks) be built so as to be removable. Murphy's Law hasn't been repealed yet. In the event of hull damage, or a leak developing in the tank, or, god forbid, changing your design requirements, you still have options. Welding, glassing, or furnishing over a tank eventually can bite you very hard should things take a turn for the worse. I can't even count the number of boats I've seen, just this year, that developed a tank problem. And then do everything they can to avoid what gets done eventually.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:37   #23
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exfishnz,
Hey, you must have been on the same wave length as me to a point.Because I am thinking hard about the motor set up and am going to design a new pilot house( centre cab similar to what was on it before I chopped it's head off )......
I've read of it (at boatdesign.net) being done before. It just makes sense to do something like this as the whole engine frame can be dropped in or pulled out by a small truck with a hydraulic finger & taken (or shipped) to a workshop. I'm thinking of a heavy steel engine frame that would mount to the same place (& have other mounts if needed) as where the engine would normally be mounted - although you'll need to make space in the hull design for the engine frame & take into account the box (if it also has mounts). On the front of the engine framing would be an SS shaft that would be mated to the front (external) of the engine crank, from there they'd be a number of devices (attached to the engine frame) mated to electric magnetic clutches via pulleys (like the pic below).

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Just another point here, even though continuous duty engines are only meant to be rebuilt after a certain amount of high hours, sometimes stuff just happens. One time we had the flywheel bearing start to go, we were lucky that we could slowly limp home, however, the work in the engine room separating the box from engine (to replace the flywheel bearing) was not easy (restricted space back at that end). The other thing too, although the Deere's (& I think Cummins) all have wet cylinder linings that also make rebuilding simpler (no need to hone the block), it would be simpler just to have a system whereby the whole lot could be pulled out.

As for the pilothouse, I'm thinking of having an enclosed one - in which the steel roof can be bolted on & also lifted off. The roof would have no wiring running through it (I'll use conduits down the side). Whether the roof is big enough for the engine frame to fit through (even on an angle), I dunno, but that's what the NA (naval architect) should be able to help me with (or talk me out of it ).

Quote:
You have a budget of $300 K.??
Wow!! you should find or build a grand boat for that
Yeah, but no house, no wife, no kids, still early 30's, no wuckenforries Just some technology, cash & a collection of passports I'm designing to go single handed to waters such as the Antarctic Peninsula, Iceland, Svalbard (if possible) etc. Although I can cut back on a number of things (as I've already mentioned), there's just some things I can't afford to go cheap on (i.e. naval architecture, amount of re-enforced steel required, extra engineering, custom equipment etc). There use to be a rough rule of thumb of $10 for every lb of displacement, I honestly don't know how good the rule is nowaday's - but could I end up weighing about 30k lbs??? I dunno.
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:04   #24
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Quote:
I am looking at going for some sort of rooftop that can come off if I ever have to remove the motor.Bolted on at each of 4 corners of pilot house
It's called a soft patch and I think you would want more than just 4 bolts in order to ensure that it remains leak free. Seal it with something like 3M - 4200 and it should be good and dry until or if you ever need to remove it. Dave Gerr talks about it in the book I recommended a while ago.

Gerr also talks about making the cabin top out of aluminum, wood or fiberglass to cut down on the weight at that height.
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Old 05-07-2008, 15:58   #25
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Hit the nail on the head

Exman,
Good ideas.




DeepFrz as we have come to see always has the common sense approach and advice.
Need to heed that advice on the construction materials for weigth distribution

Roy M,
Have read of the similar problems in fully built in tanks.I'm with you on that opinion . Really like the one you have built in your companionway ( is that what they call it ? ).

Re the motor size.Still struggling to get a definitive answer on my query re the 40 hp Lister I have been offered.$4000,:00 with all the trimmings and a spare g/b seemed a very good deal.Fully rebuilt too.
Heeding Borocay's advice maybe it is too small.End weight of my boat will be about 10-11 ton?
Any comments from a suitably qualfied engineer or someone who has done it and done it again ?
Would rather forgo the good deal if it is going to cause me propulsion problems.Apparently these motors are very strong and poweerful low down.

Same with the mast.
40 ft boat.
What size mast should I be keeping an eye out for whilst I go about this rebuild,keeping in mind I have been given a 40 ft timber mast that I can use if opinion says this is a suitable size.?
Do I need to go and seek a mast builder to give this advice.?

Regards
John
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Old 05-07-2008, 22:07   #26
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John I can`t help with what motor or sail sizes, except to say research what others with the same size boat have done, go for a drive and drop into a couple of ports find similar boat sizes and talk to the people (weekends are best) that way you will get user knowledge.
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Old 05-07-2008, 22:25   #27
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Re the motor size.Still struggling to get a definitive answer on my query re the 40 hp Lister I have been offered.$4000,:00 with all the trimmings and a spare g/b seemed a very good deal.Fully rebuilt too.
I'm not a qualified engineer, but I'm going to offer my 2 cents here. An old rough rule used to be 2hp for every ton of displacement (not sure if "long", "short" or "metric" tons - but probably "short" (US) ). It seems nowaday's everyone has doubled that figure (as they want to go faster ) The thing with the engine is to get the data on which rpm's the torque will begin to peak & fall off, you use this data with the engineers to design your prop & decide on your gear reduction ratio etc.

Quote:
Heeding Borocay's advice maybe it is too small.End weight of my boat will be about 10-11 ton?
Are you sure you're going to weigh 11 ton? (I assume 11k kgs / 24k lbs). I say this because a 40' LOD Bruce Roberts steel Spray design has a displacement of 36k lbs (16k kgs) with a recommended engine of 50-70hp.
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:09   #28
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Engine size, engine removal...

When thinking about engine size please remember that the power available can drop as factors like exhaust restriction, alternator cutting in, overheating, warm inlet air, wear and tear, incorrect propeller, fouling on propeller, fouling on boat etc. reduce the effectiveness of the engine.
All these can happen at the worst possible time.

If 20hp will theoretically drive your boat at hull speed then 40hp will do it reliably. Trouble is, 20hp might not.

We took a spin up the harbour today under calm conditions and I did a few checks.
1500 rpm (20-30hp?) gave us 5-6 knots with everything clean.
2050 rpm (flat out - 65hp, propeller needs repitching) gave around 8 knots.

Friend with a boat similar to mine with (I think) a 35hp diesel has trouble getting over 4 knots with some fouling on the propeller and questions over pitch and diameter.

I have owned 4 significant boats.
7 tonne ferro that I built myself. 7hp Yanmar was fine but I had a crew of fit young persons who would snap into action before I could think about it.
1 tonne ply centrboarder that I built myself. 8 hp Suzuki outboard was good but this was mostly in very calm conditions north of New Guinea.
Old 27' fibreglass - purchased. Had a worn aircooled diesel 10hp? Was good on Sydney Harbour.

My point is that all of these boats worked well under benign conditions with good crew.

Thinking about going into testing conditions with inexperienced crew I went with a big reliable engine. I still think that it is the way to go.

My understanding is that the way to remove an engine is to have some sort of way of moving it horizontally out through an existing door, then lifting with a crane. This is the way the engine went into and out of Boracay. Taking the top off is going to be expensive and problematic.
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:18   #29
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My understanding is that the way to remove an engine is to have some sort of way of moving it horizontally out through an existing door, then lifting with a crane. This is the way the engine went into and out of Boracay. Taking the top off is going to be expensive and problematic.
Have seen a roof cut off a fishing boat replacing their engine, it was too big to go through the door although on a sailboat you may just fit it through the door (like you did, btw, was that with the box attached?). The other way is to take it apart inside the engine room/bay (but I would really hate to do this ).
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:42   #30
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John, I just did a quick search on the HRW3, the vitals are below:

3 cylinder, 3135cc, 46.5hp @ 2200rpm, 4-1/4” x 4-1/2” bore/stroke, 0.39 long tons (396kgs)

So can it be assumed we're talking about a 46hp (not 40hp)?

I agree with Boracay, I think you may be pushing it - even with 46hp (edit: that is unless you're happy to go slow ).
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