Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

[avb3]

My current boat does not have a liner, and my preference once a new one is on the horizon, that it does not either. The arguments and discussion points against liners are well known, and no need to repeat those.

That being said, the execution of how liners are used vary widely. With some boats, they are integral to the structure and strength of the hull, whereas with others they are used primarily to hang the interior parts from.

Sooooooo......

the question becomes, which boats, and manufacturers use liners for each situation. In addition, what about the attachment. Is it done properly, with fiberglass, or just glued, and worse, glued to plywood? What about access for inspection and maintenance? What about electrical/plumbing runs?

Hopefully this does not become a discussion of liners versus no liners, but a discussion which boat, and manufacturer, executes the use of liners best.

[sailnow2011]

Look at the garcia 45.
You did not say what size you are seeking, you may want to tell us.
The Garcia is an awesome boat, with an aluminum hull and fiberglass deck. It has a lifting centerboard, and can be beached. Not bad for a mono. It also has a raised saloon, for a great view. I would buy one in a flicker if they were not over 300k.

[a64pilot]

IP's have partial liners, liners will near as I can tell limit access somewhat, depending on how well it's executed of course.

[RainDog]

Pacific Seacraft have liners that are done well: access to the hull everywhere and the liner is glassed (not just tabbed) to the hull.

[30AGuy]

So... this is a bit of a deviation and pardon my ignorance but what is a liner?

[YachtBroker]

Nearly all the boats built now, Beneteau, Jeanneau (IE group beneteau), Catalina, Marlow Hunter, Bavaria, Hanse and nearly every builder utilizes some type of grid in the boat. Ericson even used a grid back in the early 80s. Dufour (french) under the original owners in the 70s was the first boat that I ever saw that had a grid and I have resold before a 1980 Dufour 35 that had a grid in it and was still very structurally sound.

Like Rain Dog said his Pacific Seacraft (which I sold him and have been a dealer for) has a grid in it. Most all builders have some grid inside.

Older more traditionally built boats were what we called "stick built". Every thing done by hand. Even the floor members were wood and every piece was put in and built one piece at a time. So chain plates were loaded on bulkheads or hulls and the loads were heavy in those area, so that is why traditional boats (hans christians for ex) have 2-3" thick bulkheads.

A grid works in several ways and for most builders they take the rigging and put rods down into the cabin and tie those into the grid. So that takes the chain plate loads off of the main bulkhead (and hence they are not usually load bearing at that point anymore). The grid also becomes a structure of the boat. Most boats are now built in sections and then joined. Hull, deck, deck inner liner and grid. So 4 pieces and technically all "glued/glassed" together.

Some of the older boats did have wood as a core in the grid and I would stay away from those and it's hard to tell what builders did it. If you stay in a boat mid 90s and up you're probably going to be OK but all builders have improved their build processes even since then. A 2015 Catalina 38 is not built like a even a 1994 Catalina 38.

The only downside I see is that they are very hard to repair if holed because the grid is in the way but I have seen Beneteaus that were holed and still successfully repaired.

Kent Little

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by 30AGuy

So... this is a bit of a deviation and pardon my ignorance but what is a liner?

Kind of like wall paper. It lines or covers the inside of a boat's hull. Usually to hide the rough fiberglass of the inside of the hull. Usually a molded plastic insert that is laid into the hull during production. Sometimes made of vinyl cloth, as in the Cal line of boats, or of wood paneling like in the Hans Christian line of boats. Makes the boat look "finished" inside. Some boats have the inside of the hull finished off in a fine fiberglass cloth so it becomes part of the hull.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Kind of like wall paper. It lines or covers the inside of a boat's hull. Usually to hide the rough fiberglass of the inside of the hull. Usually a molded plastic insert that is laid into the hull during production. Sometimes made of vinyl cloth, as in the Cal line of boats, or of wood paneling like in the Hans Christian line of boats. Makes the boat look "finished" inside. Some boats have the inside of the hull finished off in a fine fiberglass cloth so it becomes part of the hull.

That is one kind of liner, but not (I believe) what the OP was asking about. "Yachtbroker" got it right two posts back.

My Pacific Seacraft has a liner and there is reasonably good access to the hull, and wiring / pipe runs. The liner is very ruggedly built. This liner is a molded fiberglass piece that drops into the empty hull and is securely bonded to the hull. The liner has access holes so you can get to the keel bolts, battery compartment, through-hulls, storage areas, etc. In my case locking cabin sole panels cover most of these access holes, and screwed-in panels cover the rest. The liner has molded sections for the bench seats, part of the nav-station, and similar interior details. In my boat most, if not all, bulkheads are bonded to the hull, not the liner. Chainplates for the shrouds are definitely attached to hull-bonded bulkheads.

Some boats have bulkheads that are glued into the liner, and the hull flexes enough at sea that bulkheads have popped out, doors refuse to open or shut, etc. This is not a fault of the liner per se, but do to poor design (or at least a design not suited to the job). Other boats with liners (such as the Pacific Seacraft line) are quite solid and rigid. We have spent weeks at sea, sometimes in quite tough conditions, and the boat remains quiet, the doors all work properly, etc. This is a hull and liner done right.

With our liner, when compared to a "stick-built" boat we may indeed have slightly less access to the hull in an emergency. I'm not too worried about that.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by 30AGuy

So... this is a bit of a deviation and pardon my ignorance but what is a liner?

If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video must be worth a million.
What most people refer to as a liner Hunter calls an interior grid, but they are the same thing. The description starts at 3:36.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmRo...tailpage#t=146

[Muckle Flugga]

Just wondering, there, AVB, why buy new? And… there are manufacturers without liners still. They do tend to be expensive though. But, well, why buy new?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Just wondering, there, AVB, why buy new? And… there are manufacturers without liners still. They do tend to be expensive though. But, well, why buy new?

No, I doubt I would ever buy new. But liners have been around for long enough now that some manufacturers certainly use what was the best one could say is questionable methods, whereas others hopefully are more concerned about quality of how liners or partial liners are used.

Seeing the video link above and the preponderance of using plexus versus fiberglass bonding that the manufacturer uses, is a concern. Not because of any inherent bonding issues, but more concerns that flexing over time can lead to failures.

Of course a grid that is glued into place presents a whole other set of problems.

So, what I'm trying to do, is get some sort of shortlist of manufacturers that do not glued in grids, nor excessive use of liners instead of bulkheads, and those that make it difficult to access working parts of the hall.

The year of the boats doesn't matter, as I suspect manufacturers have changed some of their methods over time. What matters is that the methods that use are actually proven beyond just coastal sailing.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by avb3

No, I doubt I would ever buy new. But liners have been around for long enough now that some manufacturers certainly use what was the best one could say is questionable methods, whereas others hopefully are more concerned about quality of how liners or partial liners are used.

Seeing the video link above and the preponderance of using plexus versus fiberglass bonding that the manufacturer uses, is a concern. Not because of any inherent bonding issues, but more concerns that flexing over time can lead to failures.

Of course a grid that is glued into place presents a whole other set of problems.

So, what I'm trying to do, is get some sort of shortlist of manufacturers that do not glued in grids, nor excessive use of liners instead of bulkheads, and those that make it difficult to access working parts of the hall.

The year of the boats doesn't matter, as I suspect manufacturers have changed some of their methods over time. What matters is that the methods that use are actually proven beyond just coastal sailing.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Makes sense. I would have thought the best authorities on this on CF would be Neilpride, Minaret, and Polux.

[sainted]

I recall reading recently about repairs to the hull of a Swan with a liner (relatively late model). The author of the article or book remarked that the repair had been extremely difficult to execute and would not have been economically justifiable if the boat hadn't been a Swan. I'm pretty sure the book was To Sail a Serious Ocean by John Kretschmer. If you're looking for a good cruising boat, you should read that book. John has sailed (often in challenging conditions) an incredibly wide variety of boats, and he reports on his favorites in that book.

[barnakiel]

Our boat has some liners. I like liners. I would have them in my future boat.

Have seen quality liner finish on many Scandinavian (e.g Helmsman), Dutch (e.g Victoire), French (e.g. Dufour) and English (e.g Vancouver) boats.

b.

[sailnow2011]

Originally Posted by avb3

No, I doubt I would ever buy new. But liners have been around for long enough now that some manufacturers certainly use what was the best one could say is questionable methods, whereas others hopefully are more concerned about quality of how liners or partial liners are used.

Seeing the video link above and the preponderance of using plexus versus fiberglass bonding that the manufacturer uses, is a concern. Not because of any inherent bonding issues, but more concerns that flexing over time can lead to failures.

Of course a grid that is glued into place presents a whole other set of problems.

So, what I'm trying to do, is get some sort of shortlist of manufacturers that do not glued in grids, nor excessive use of liners instead of bulkheads, and those that make it difficult to access working parts of the hall.

The year of the boats doesn't matter, as I suspect manufacturers have changed some of their methods over time. What matters is that the methods that use are actually proven beyond just coastal sailing.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

For survey sake:
If you could buy a brand new boat, for $300,000 that was 45' long and 7 seas capable, would you?