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Old 04-11-2015, 07:22   #121
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I think Hake/ Seaward is the lifting keel boat built under contract by IP.

I have owned my 32 IP centerboard for over 10 years and have been surprised at the lack of trouble with the CB set up. Boat sits in the water 24/7, have only painted the trunk once. Yard let it hang in the slings overnight. Board Up and down easily (did change the SS cable a couple of years back).

Big difference in boats made with a grid and those made with a liner. I own both types. IP liner good access almost everywhere, Hunter grid limited access. Both types have major structural implications for the boat.

Also own 18' BW Outrage. Ultimate cored construction. Very, very stiff boat boat but thin skinned and easily punctured.

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Old 04-11-2015, 07:24   #122
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just read up on them, as something I certainly had not considered.

Having no experience with lifting keels, the concern I have heard expressed is critter growth in the mechanism. I know this one is hydraulic, and that may mitigate things, but with the situation in Florida waters, I wonder how that would impact? Can't imagine a diver being able to get in there.

I was VERY surprised to read that they have no chain plates. Can you comment on that aspect at all.

It's a good looking boat. Any idea of head room? The nav station looks like it might be a bit tight for someone my height. I like the numerous grab rails they seem to have, although I didn't see any overhead. Huge galley layout for a boat that size it seems. Again, lots of grab rails there.

It certainly is on the higher side of where I would be looking at as far as costs, but, yes, an interesting suggestion.
If I had known you were looking for boats with these criteria, I could have looked at the Southerlies for you at the Southampton Boat Show last month.

I have only been on one once, and it was a while ago, but I remember it was very lovely, and with every tiny detail thought out. A real premium boat similar to Contest etc. in the level of finishing.

If you want to pop over to the UK sometime this fall to look at them, you can stay on board with me here and we can go around to the dealers and look at them. Berthon, for example, is in Lymington, just across the Solent.

Their keels have a very good reputation over here for reliability, where the fouling is pretty gnarly.

Another lifting keel boat to look at might be the Ovni, which is something entirely different from the Southerly. It's made in France of alu, in Cherbourg, just across the Channel from here. Very cool boats. Much less elegant than the Southerly, but has a kind of expedition look to it. Beaches very well, but I guess that's not really a criterion in Florida with your 4" tides.
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Old 04-11-2015, 08:13   #123
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

You know, this doesn't look "right"
On Beach | Seaward Yachts
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:08   #124
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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You know, this doesn't look "right"
On Beach | Seaward Yachts

The rudder on those boats does not look "right "either. So sketchy they don't even show in the pictures.
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:28   #125
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I don't fear liners, I fear manufacturers that don't design them in a way allowing access to be tabbed to the hull in many places. Thus relying on 1) that the liner fits intimately to the hull... in places they cant inspect, 2) hoping the adhesive they use will fill the gaps and hold fine, when they don't know the fit.
Fiberglass layup shrinks for a long time after layup, will it hold?
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:52   #126
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I really have tried to stay out of it, but:

It is hard for me to understand how people can believe that fiberglass tabbing is stronger than adhesive binding of two surfaces. Take two piece of wood and glue together and another two and tape the edges together and see which holds better.

Access to systems like wiring and piping in a liner: Grid and liner systems are designed to make it easier to route these.

Thousands and thousands of boats are around with liners and pans with no issues. Except for on forums the only problem with these is if you have some type of major collision.

And yes I have had to cut a hole in a section of my aft berth liner to get access to a hose that I couldn't snake though the bulkhead. It was a big deal and I'm sure was less than if I had to have taken half the berth apart instead.
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Old 04-11-2015, 11:06   #127
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, except Oyster.

SAILING yachts. I don't know about motor yachts, or motor sailers. I think Nauticats are all solid (and they are expensive, and lovely), but they are heavy displacement motor sailers.

The high end European makers have had excellent results with it, and you don't hear about many problems. By and large they use vacuum infusion and encapsulated blocks.

High end American makers like Hinckley and Morris have had more problems. Morris were using plain non-encapsulated balsa until quite late, and did have a fair number of core problems. It could be that there is more prejudice against it in the U.S. because of this.

Steve Dashew's Sundeers have fully cored hulls. He was one of the pioneers of the vacuum in fusion process; he calls it SCRIMP. They seem to be very reliable. J-Boats (made in the same yard as Sundeers) use the same process.


Inexpensive mass produced boats like Beneteau, Hunter, etc., on the contrary, all have solid hulls below the waterline.


I don't know, frankly, about the German makers Hanse, Dehler, and Bavaria.
As far as I know, Swan has not used cored hulls. They might have started around 2005 but all of the boats made in the 70's to the early 2000's were solid hulls.
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Old 04-11-2015, 12:06   #128
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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As far as I know, Swan has not used cored hulls. They might have started around 2005 but all of the boats made in the 70's to the early 2000's were solid hulls.
I had thought that all Swans were fully cored since the first Frers designs. And my my friend's Swan 90, designed by Frers and laid down in 1991 -- is definitely 100% balsa cored. But I just asked someone I know who worked with Frers, and he tells me that some of the smaller boats they designed had solid bottoms under balsa cored topsides. Some of them, interestingly, carbon.

So I stand corrected; thanks.
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Old 04-11-2015, 12:19   #129
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

If you get interested in the French designs, check out the Allures, as well. Again, the retractable boards. A friend has one, and it is more tender with the boards up.

Don't you think that as long as you are lifting and lowering the boards frequently, that they'll clean themselves pretty well. Ultimately, of course, they do require antifouling, but that's done at haulout time, and shouldn't affect access to shallow places.

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Old 04-11-2015, 12:39   #130
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

As much as I love traditional hulls and long overhangs... I wouldn't mind a Seaward 46. I walked through one at last years boat show and it was an amazing boat inside and out.

I had no idea something that shallow drafted could have that much interior volume....

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Old 04-11-2015, 14:45   #131
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I really have tried to stay out of it, but:
You allmost made it

It is hard for me to understand how people can believe that fiberglass tabbing is stronger than adhesive binding of two surfaces. Take two piece of wood and glue together and another two and tape the edges together and see which holds better.
And this is related to glued liners how?

Access to systems like wiring and piping in a liner: Grid and liner systems are designed to make it easier to route these.
But not for maintenance and inspection

Thousands and thousands of boats are around with liners and pans with no issues. Except for on forums the only problem with these is if you have some type of major collision.
No known issues. Can't really know if it's hidden, and issues tend turn into disaster sometimes..

And yes I have had to cut a hole in a section of my aft berth liner to get access to a hose that I couldn't snake though the bulkhead. It was a big deal and I'm sure was less than if I had to have taken half the berth apart instead.
How about opening the berth locker lid instead?
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Old 04-11-2015, 21:01   #132
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I really have tried to stay out of it, but:

It is hard for me to understand how people can believe that fiberglass tabbing is stronger than adhesive binding of two surfaces. Take two piece of wood and glue together and another two and tape the edges together and see which holds better.

2 reasons to start:
1. Wider joint than glued distributes rather than point loads- and remember these are 90 degree joints between bulkhead and hull.
2. Joint is actually fitted with taped and tabbed bulkheads. In contrast to this precise method, the inside of a liner and the outside of a hull are what are laid in a mold, and hence are precise. The other sides- outside of liner and inside of hull- which are mated by adhesive- are not precisely shaped and are subject to variation in thickness depending on how thick the layup is and the variation inherent in laying fiberglass. So a perfect adhesive fit like two pieces of wood is really not possible as the two halves are a rough fit. And with many liners, no way to see if adhesive even bridged the inevitable gaps as all is hidden.


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Old 05-11-2015, 04:08   #133
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Wood is nature's own composite. Many types have a higher strength/mass ratio than titanium. Somewhat more maintenance, but IMHO a great material for boats.

I spent a couple of winters in Cowes berthed opposite a gorgeous schooner, Craftsman's Art, a multimillion pound superyacht. Made of -- mahogany. Encased in epoxy. Designed by Bill Dixon, who designed my boat.

It doesn't rot if you take care of it.

And wood in the core of a cored plastic boat doesn't rot, if it's properly made. With the balsa cut into end grain blocks, and resin infused in a vacuum bag. This is expensive, of course.
I like most of your posts a lot, Dockhead, but I am afraid this is just not true. I have seen rot MANY times in cored hulls, often very high quality ones. I attach an example of thoroughgoing rotten marine ply inside the core of the afterdeck of an Oyster undergoing deck replacement. I did the survey for the rot on this vessel myself and found many areas of rotten balsa (although they were fairly confined in each case as the end grain stops sideways wicking) as well as rotten ply, which had been used to core the high load areas and in several rather extensive areas had entirely rotted to mush!
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Old 05-11-2015, 04:35   #134
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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I like most of your posts a lot, Dockhead, but I am afraid this is just not true. I have seen rot MANY times in cored hulls, often very high quality ones. I attach an example of thoroughgoing rotten marine ply inside the core of the afterdeck of an Oyster undergoing deck replacement. I did the survey for the rot on this vessel myself and found many areas of rotten balsa (although they were fairly confined in each case as the end grain stops sideways wicking) as well as rotten ply, which had been used to core the high load areas and in several rather extensive areas had entirely rotted to mush!
Then there was something done wrong becouse there are wooden cored vessels without defects too.
Steps to do things right:
-Barrier coating, also inside the core
-Epoxy only
-One-off or vacuum infusion or production process with similar quality
-Properly installed hardware
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Old 05-11-2015, 04:38   #135
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Then there was something done wrong becouse there are wooden cored vessels without defects too.
Steps to do things right:
-Barrier coating, also inside the core
-Epoxy only
-One-off or vacuum infusion or production process with similar quality
-Properly installed hardware
This was a Landamores built boat. I assure you it was done right.
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