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Old 03-11-2015, 08:01   #91
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by Azul View Post
Since nobody is actually addressing the initial question (I guess there are fewer bazillionaires on here than I thought that can actually afford a new sailboat that is full of high tech wizardry,) here are some players that are playing with resin infusion which does require a big investment and enough common sense to do a liner well:

From Reinforced Plastics:

Other builders of fast cruising yachts, both sail and power, have sought similar benefits by adopting vacuum resin infusion. Germany’s Hanse Yachts, which has a reputation for employing efficient modern production methods, infuses the sandwich glass/epoxy skinned Corecell foam cored sandwich structure of its 630e fast sail cruiser, for example. Significantly, Hanse now owns Dehler Yachts and the Dehler 41 is similarly infused, though the resin used in this case is vinyl ester.

Infused foam cored sandwich is also the basis for X-Yachts’ Xp 38 sailboat (the ‘p’ signifies performance) in which the resin is epoxy, although an earlier infused model, the Xp 33 has vinyl ester as the resin. The roll call of infused performance cruisers also includes the latest C72CS sailboat from Dutch builder Contest Yachts, the Solaris One-60 from e-Yachts, the J-111 from J-Boats and the Tartan 4700 from Tartan Yachts in the USA (the last-named also has carbon composite mast and boom). Croatia-based AD Yachts offers infusion as an option for its ‘performance optimised’ Salona 38. Oyster Yachts, known for its quality sail craft, made a foray into the infusion of superyachts at its RMK subsidiary in Turkey where three vessels up to 125 ft long were built before recession struck.

When I get my inheritance I will opt for an Oyster, solid decks too. I have an aversion to rotten core.

Oysters have never had solid decks. Since Oyster #1 (the Oyster 37 IIRC), Oysters have always had balsa cored decks. They have traditionally been solid GRP (and massively thick) below the waterline, but Oyster's latest designs -- the ones you mention -- are cored all the way to the keel.

The article you are quoting is talking about the virtues of fully cored construction. Not solid! It is talking about vacuum infusion of CORES -- which is a superior (and expensive) way to do it.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:24   #92
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Oysters have never had solid decks. Since Oyster #1 (the Oyster 37 IIRC), Oysters have always had balsa cored decks. They have traditionally been solid GRP (and massively thick) below the waterline, but Oyster's latest designs -- the ones you mention -- are cored all the way to the keel.

The article you are quoting is talking about the virtues of fully cored construction. Not solid! It is talking about vacuum infusion of CORES -- which is a superior (and expensive) way to do it.
From Oyster Yachts website:

Whilst design development continues, there are a number of proven fundamental details that are common to all our designs. An example is our policy to over-specify hull structure and hull laminate and to reinforce each hull with very substantial athwarthships floors and full length fore and aft stringers. For ultimate durability we also use a solid glass construction to create a hull that is stiff and really strong. Keel-stepped masts, substantial chain plates, massively reinforced mast steps and rudders hung on a full-length skeg are all common features in our yachts.
The hull lines and extended styling of the Oyster 100 and 125 are from Dubois Naval Architects, experts in the superyacht market.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:36   #93
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Another problem with cored hulls that wouldn't happen with a solid glass hull: from Yacht World's article on the Hugo Boss

The modern matrix design of some light-displacement yachts gives us concern. We frequently encounter incidents where the keel structural matrix has been damaged and consequently moves independently of the hull skin. This is generally encountered after a grounding when only an in-water inspection has taken place. When the vessel is hauled ashore and the keel inspected while still in the slings, any twist or separation of the matrix bonding becomes evident
Read more at Keel failure: the shocking facts - Yachting World
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:43   #94
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Core delamination on a 2008 Bertram 68, vacuum bagged and infused. Bertram is not exactly known for its poor quality workmanship, quality control or lack of research:

From The Hull Truth:
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:55   #95
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Dockhead said
"
It seems to me you are also not using the word "strength" in the engineering sense.......... "Strength", in the engineering sense, is how much load a structure can carry without being permanently deformed. This quality is highly relevant to boat design."

I'm not an engineer but it seems to me that any impact that causes delamination has caused the structure to be "permanently deformed".

I do wish this thread would get back to the ops question about grids and liners and away from skin tech.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:56   #96
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I remember reading about bi/tri directional mats used in high end boats. One engineer said their company (Baltic or X-Yachts IIRC) was not convinced that the hull would not delaminate at some point due to the difference in flex rates. They preferred to stick with unidirectional mats and not worry what would happen to the hulls in 30 years. I think adding grids and liners can stiffen a boat but if the quality is not there then you will see separation and then failure. I had a full liner in our old Beneteau 36.7, we never could get all of the water out of the hull/liner cavity.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:00   #97
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Azul, cool down
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:07   #98
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Not to completely derail the current "conversation", but I was wrong, my Jeanneau does have a liner that makes up the head/shower as well as a liner under the cockpit for the aft cabin. It thankfully does not have a hull liner or matrix. Instead, glassed in timbers. There is a strip of core in the hull above the waterline about 8" wide from bow to stern. It must be really, really strong because it has both core and solid hull, hehehe.

Resume internet argument.........
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:12   #99
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azul View Post
From Oyster Yachts website:

Whilst design development continues, there are a number of proven fundamental details that are common to all our designs. An example is our policy to over-specify hull structure and hull laminate and to reinforce each hull with very substantial athwarthships floors and full length fore and aft stringers. For ultimate durability we also use a solid glass construction to create a hull that is stiff and really strong. Keel-stepped masts, substantial chain plates, massively reinforced mast steps and rudders hung on a full-length skeg are all common features in our yachts.
The hull lines and extended styling of the Oyster 100 and 125 are from Dubois Naval Architects, experts in the superyacht market.
Yes, as I wrote, solid glass hulls (below the waterline) have been a trademark of Oyster since their beginnings. Contrary to all other expensive sailing yacht builders which had gone to fully cored construction by the '90's.

But the new Oyster 100 and 125 have fully cored hulls, contrary to Oyster tradition. Oyster is finally joining the 21st century New Oyster designs are also dropping the full skeg rudders.


Oyster achieve strength despite solid construction below the waterline with truly massive layups. The Oyster 485 I almost bought had a 4" (!) layup at the keel-hull joint. You couldn't use a normal depth transducer housing in it!! This of course is very strong, but at the expense of many, many tons of extra weight. This boat has light ship displacement of more than 20 tons, although the waterline length is less than 40'. That's a SA/D of over 300, which today is firmly in the "porky" category . An absolute beauty, however -- floating sex. One of the last Holman & Pye Oysters.


Interestingly, the Oyster 125 uses a balsa core, rather than foam. There are three tons (!) of balsa in the hull of the Oyster 125. The modern trend has been to use foam instead of balsa. There are new foam materials which are getting closer to balsa in strength, and it is easier to work with, and can't rot, and that is what almost all the high end builders are using these days. Oyster continues to go its own way.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:21   #100
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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I am going to pile on here, as earlier he made the incorrect blanket statement that Cals have liners. Not to mention comparing liners to wallpaper...
My Cal 40 a 1963 design has something that I call a partial liner. The Cal 34 I sailed on has essentially the same. I don't know if it is structural in general, but the engine beds are part of the liner.

This Cal 29 shows the extent of the liner, which is similar to the 40 and the 34.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:25   #101
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azul View Post
Another problem with cored hulls that wouldn't happen with a solid glass hull: from Yacht World's article on the Hugo Boss

The modern matrix design of some light-displacement yachts gives us concern. We frequently encounter incidents where the keel structural matrix has been damaged and consequently moves independently of the hull skin. This is generally encountered after a grounding when only an in-water inspection has taken place. When the vessel is hauled ashore and the keel inspected while still in the slings, any twist or separation of the matrix bonding becomes evident
Read more at Keel failure: the shocking facts - Yachting World

You know this hasn't anything to do with a cored hull, right?

This has to do with the original question
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:26   #102
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by Geitz View Post
Not to completely derail the current "conversation", but I was wrong, my Jeanneau does have a liner that makes up the head/shower as well as a liner under the cockpit for the aft cabin. It thankfully does not have a hull liner or matrix. Instead, glassed in timbers. There is a strip of core in the hull above the waterline about 8" wide from bow to stern. It must be really, really strong because it has both core and solid hull, hehehe.

Resume internet argument.........
The pre-liner Jeanneaus are really nice designs, much stronger than current mass produced designs I've seen. The layup is relatively thick and the hulls are fairly heavy, but getting back to the OP's question -- these Jeanneaus would be near the top of my own list, FWIW. They are also nice to look at and sail well. Terrific value for the money.

The head/shower prefab unit is not a liner. I think all boats have these these days. Are there access panels in it?
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Old 03-11-2015, 10:09   #103
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I have needed to do a little housekeeping .

Carry on .

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Old 03-11-2015, 10:15   #104
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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The head/shower prefab unit is not a liner. I think all boats have these these days. Are there access panels in it?
Not to the bilge. I called it a liner, but prefab unit is a better description.
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Old 03-11-2015, 10:26   #105
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, as I wrote, solid glass hulls (below the waterline) have been a trademark of Oyster since their beginnings. Contrary to all other expensive sailing yacht builders which had gone to fully cored construction by the '90's.

But the new Oyster 100 and 125 have fully cored hulls, contrary to Oyster tradition. Oyster is finally joining the 21st century New Oyster designs are also dropping the full skeg rudders.


Oyster achieve strength despite solid construction below the waterline with truly massive layups. The Oyster 485 I almost bought had a 4" (!) layup at the keel-hull joint. You couldn't use a normal depth transducer housing in it!! This of course is very strong, but at the expense of many, many tons of extra weight. This boat has light ship displacement of more than 20 tons, although the waterline length is less than 40'. That's a SA/D of over 300, which today is firmly in the "porky" category . An absolute beauty, however -- floating sex. One of the last Holman & Pye Oysters.


Interestingly, the Oyster 125 uses a balsa core, rather than foam. There are three tons (!) of balsa in the hull of the Oyster 125. The modern trend has been to use foam instead of balsa. There are new foam materials which are getting closer to balsa in strength, and it is easier to work with, and can't rot, and that is what almost all the high end builders are using these days. Oyster continues to go its own way.
You are saying all expensive yachts used cored hulls?
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