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Old 31-10-2015, 17:22   #16
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

There are liners, and there are, lets call them grids as I do not know if they have a proper name. Excuse my names for things, I come from a different background and often mis-name things, but the principle is the same whether it floats or flies.
I think liners are mostly for ease and speed of production, lets you drop in the whole head / Galley area for example, but aren't really the structure.
Then the "grids" their point is to increase the stiffness of a thin hull to an acceptable level. Basically a hull whose strength and stiffness comes form the skin is a Monocoque constrution, and to be fair, that's heavy, now you can separate the two skins and gain a lot of stiffness, aircraft use honeycomb for that, hull cores can perform in a similar fashion I'm sure, increasing stiffness without adding a lot of weight, the core is essentially the center part of an I beam.
I prefer a "monolithic" hull, that is thick, solid glass, but it's heavy, unnecessarily heavy it could be argued, and may be more expensive than a cored or thinner hull with a "grid"
It can be argued that "grids" have been around for as long as there have been boats, the grids perform the same function that ribs and the keel did in wooden boats.
I wouldn't imagine a race boat would be built with a solid hull, and wouldn't think it would be popular for Cats either, I'd expect both would use cores and grids extensively?


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Old 31-10-2015, 17:59   #17
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
That is one kind of liner, but not (I believe) what the OP was asking about. "Yachtbroker" got it right two posts back.

My Pacific Seacraft has a liner and there is reasonably good access to the hull, and wiring / pipe runs. The liner is very ruggedly built. This liner is a molded fiberglass piece that drops into the empty hull and is securely bonded to the hull. The liner has access holes so you can get to the keel bolts, battery compartment, through-hulls, storage areas, etc. In my case locking cabin sole panels cover most of these access holes, and screwed-in panels cover the rest. The liner has molded sections for the bench seats, part of the nav-station, and similar interior details. In my boat most, if not all, bulkheads are bonded to the hull, not the liner. Chainplates for the shrouds are definitely attached to hull-bonded bulkheads.

Some boats have bulkheads that are glued into the liner, and the hull flexes enough at sea that bulkheads have popped out, doors refuse to open or shut, etc. This is not a fault of the liner per se, but do to poor design (or at least a design not suited to the job). Other boats with liners (such as the Pacific Seacraft line) are quite solid and rigid. We have spent weeks at sea, sometimes in quite tough conditions, and the boat remains quiet, the doors all work properly, etc. This is a hull and liner done right.

With our liner, when compared to a "stick-built" boat we may indeed have slightly less access to the hull in an emergency. I'm not too worried about that.
G

Guess you do not have a Pacific Seacraft. They do not have liners. They do glass in the bulkheads to the hulls and do tab in the carpentry to the hull in many places. Most do not have liners, except maybe in the forward compartment. You probably have a columbia or maybe a hunter?
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Old 31-10-2015, 18:05   #18
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Our boat has some liners. I like liners. I would have them in my future boat.

Have seen quality liner finish on many Scandinavian (e.g Helmsman), Dutch (e.g Victoire), French (e.g. Dufour) and English (e.g Vancouver) boats.

b.
This site use to be about "cruising" sailboats. If your going cruising long distances, you really need quick access to the hull for many reasons. Most sailboats built commercially since 2000 are for day sailing or club events; not long distance cruising. Liners make pretty boats inside but are not functional for those folks doing serious seafaring. Some folks mistakenly refer to Pacific Seacraft as having liners. They do not. They use tabbed wooden strakes that can easily be removed if needed. Liners are pans or molded inserts fitted into the hull to finish off the insides so the raw fiberglass hull is hidden.
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Old 31-10-2015, 18:24   #19
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
G

Guess you do not have a Pacific Seacraft. They do not have liners. They do glass in the bulkheads to the hulls and do tab in the carpentry to the hull in many places. Most do not have liners, except maybe in the forward compartment. You probably have a columbia or maybe a hunter?
I'm not sure why you would tell an owner of a Pacific Seacraft how his boat is built, considering, after all it is HIS boat.

But let's go to an indepdant source, one that we all would not question, Boat US, right?

Here is what they say:
A full-length molded fiberglass hull liner is used to provide a significant part of the structural integrity. The liner contains built-in components for tanks, furniture, floors, and engine beds as well as recesses for bulkheads. Unlike poorly designed hull liners, Pacific Seacraft's liner provides numerous openings so that it may be securely attached and inspected.
BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Pacific Seacraft 37

That review was written not just by some reporter but Naval architect Jack Hornor.

He was the principal surveyor and designer for Marine Survey & Design, Co., based in Annapolis, MD. He was on the boards of the American Boat and Yacht Council, the National Association of Marine Surveyors, and the Society of Boat and Yacht Designers.

I think we can agree that the man is qualified to assess how the Pacific Seacraft is build, don't you agree?

I think you owe Paul Elliot an apology.
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Old 31-10-2015, 18:34   #20
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Keep in mind that the full liners used in most new boats are structural in nature and while they do finish off the interior it allows the builder to put less glass in the structure which lowers the price to the end buyer. If that liner ever comes unglued the whole structure is compromised. It does make the boats easier and quicker to build but there are downsides but few really care these days as the boats seem to be hanging in there. It's one of the changes that have made new boats affordable.
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Old 31-10-2015, 18:40   #21
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Keep in mind that the full liners used in most new boats are structural in nature and while they do finish off the interior it allows the builder to put less glass in the structure which lowers the price to the end buyer. If that liner ever comes unglued the whole structure is compromised. It does make the boats easier and quicker to build but there are downsides but few really care these days as the boats seem to be hanging in there. It's one of the changes that have made new boats affordable.
Absolutely, and that is exactly my concern.

I also know that although liners or partial liners are used by virtually all builders in the past 20 or so years, some do it well, and others, well, don't and build as you just outlined.

Rather than bashing those that build to price only (we all know who I mean) and appeal to mostly women on the inside, I am interested in short listing the boats that are well built.

So far it appears that Pacific Seacraft and Island Packet need to be considered. I'm hoping there are others.
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Old 31-10-2015, 19:12   #22
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

If it's worth anything, I do not personally consider the liners in my IP a plus, nor any liners. I wish it didn't have them, but if there is a perfect boat, I couldn't afford it, so I had to make allowances.



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Old 31-10-2015, 19:31   #23
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

See the MAIB report on the cheeki rafiki sinking for problems with liners in terms of finding sources of leaks and structural problems with the hull liner system. Personally I wouldbuy a well founded older boat before one with a liner. My boat has good access to all systems and has no creaking out in heavy weather. Boats I have chartered have made hull creaking noises in moderate weather I presume due to hull flexing. Offshore there is definitely a sense of being in a well founded boat that is not complaining about the conditions.
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Old 31-10-2015, 19:34   #24
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Any Wauquiez prior to being sold to Beneteau around 2002
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Old 31-10-2015, 21:18   #25
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

There is no hull liner in our Cabo Rico but then again, there is no structural wood under the deck. Its 100% fiberglass.

There is one exception... the shower has a small custom liner for the sump but its seems to be pretty solid fiberglass so I don't think its a liner per se.

Boat definitely never squeaks. Almost makes no sound whatsoever when you are sleeping at night.
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Old 31-10-2015, 22:34   #26
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
G

Guess you do not have a Pacific Seacraft. They do not have liners. They do glass in the bulkheads to the hulls and do tab in the carpentry to the hull in many places. Most do not have liners, except maybe in the forward compartment. You probably have a columbia or maybe a hunter?
Reed, please look at avb3's reply. Yes, I have a Pacific Seacraft boat. I watched them build it for me. It has a liner. So do the smaller PSCs. PSC in North Carolina is currently building some custom boats that don't use a liner, but the original Crealock designs do have the liner.

What's your beef? Or were you just mistaken?
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:00   #27
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
This site use to be about "cruising" sailboats. If your going cruising long distances, you really need quick access to the hull for many reasons. Most sailboats built commercially since 2000 are for day sailing or club events; not long distance cruising. Liners make pretty boats inside but are not functional for those folks doing serious seafaring. Some folks mistakenly refer to Pacific Seacraft as having liners. They do not. They use tabbed wooden strakes that can easily be removed if needed. Liners are pans or molded inserts fitted into the hull to finish off the insides so the raw fiberglass hull is hidden.
The boats I named were Helmsman Victoire Dufour and Vancouver. Now I will also add a Rustler. PLS look them up to see what I meant.

Where I said Dufour you likely imagined one of the new Dufours. Hence my being general caused this misunderstanding.

Boats like Lord Helmsman, Victoire 1044, Dufour 35, Vancouver 27 or the Rustlers are good cruising boats. All these boats have liners.

Liners are 100% regular on ocean going cruising boats. At least this is what I have seen visiting our friends' boats during our 2003-2007 circumnavigation. Mostly mass built boats from the 70'ies, 80'ies and 90'ies.

If a builder of a modern weekend / charter boat obtains an "Ocean CE" mark from some ignorant institution and if the same builder resolves to substitute structural strength with glued in FULL liner this is not pointing towards the liner but only towards our false beliefs in manufacturing standards set to a specific price point. Otherwise there would not be so many boats out cruising.

Quality boats cost money. Liners or not liners.

And to make the picture even more sour: a low quality skipper in a boat without liners will not start searching for damage. They will simply hit the red button and wait to be helicoptered out to "safety". Even if that boat has not a single piece of liner.

So I am about 50% with you: FULL liners in flexible hulls are not what one wants far offshore. The point is this does not point the finger at liners but rather at flexibility of the hull and that of the skipper too.

Big warm hug,

b.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:18   #28
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Reed, please look at avb3's reply. Yes, I have a Pacific Seacraft boat. I watched them build it for me. It has a liner. So do the smaller PSCs. PSC in North Carolina is currently building some custom boats that don't use a liner, but the original Crealock designs do have the liner.

What's your beef? Or were you just mistaken?
I am going to pile on here, as earlier he made the incorrect blanket statement that Cals have liners. Not to mention comparing liners to wallpaper...
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:41   #29
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quite the interesting thread avb3!

I would only give my 2 cents here... BUT...

A liner in an ocean going cruising boat gives me the serious willies... I mean by this particular liner example, one that's bonded to the hull without access to the interface... And by that I mean the bonded joints AND... hull skin from the inside...

If either the Potter or Chrysler that I have were simply increased dimensionally into a cruising size, it would scare the shiznit outta be not being able to get under the tub...

If it's more like a "tub grid" with plenty of access, I see it as a no brainer... It's just like a dropped in stringer system, but give you this pretty platform to base the interior structure on...

But... I also ain't got a (larger) boat with a liner neither!
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Old 01-11-2015, 08:07   #30
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Did you guys see minaret's post on the failed survey thread???

Delam liner at the step...

Frightening...

And that was in a Catalina 42 with much better access to the grid than a beneteau. Still had to cut several very large holes in the liner to provide enough access to debonded areas of grid/liner. Anyone who can remove all interior cabinetry in way of repairs, tent the entire vessel interior for dust control, vessel protect soles, remove teak/holly insets on liner sole, cut out all liner under insets, grind and glass all areas of delam (almost impossible to reach), rebond liner skins, grind and glass all seams, fair out, prime & prep, color match gelcoat, gelcoat and finish interior to match, remove all masking and vessel protect, clean entire interior; all for $200, has a job waiting here in Seattle. This one was not too bad, passed at least two surveys like that before being spotted by diligent yard crew. Have yet to see a liner delam repair which didn't require a similar process. Definitely not a DIY repair. Wouldn't suggest anyone but an experienced pro tackle this sort of repair. And yes, materials costs alone far exceeded that amount.

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