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Old 16-11-2015, 18:20   #196
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Just thought I'd post some candy that caught my eye recently:


Pacific Seacraft SouthSea 61 | Cruising World
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Old 16-11-2015, 22:54   #197
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Just thought I'd post some candy that caught my eye recently:
Pacific Seacraft SouthSea 61 | Cruising World
And for what it's worth, Pacific Seacraft is using a glassed-in grid for this boat:
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Old 17-11-2015, 00:43   #198
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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And for what it's worth, Pacific Seacraft is using a glassed-in grid for this boat:



Yep-but no liner. And no Plexus. Plus, you'll note in the pics you posted, this is not a drop in grid. It's a series of structural floor timbers glassed in place. This is how boats should be built.


Check out renderings here:

http://pacificseacraft.com/566287/renderings/
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Old 17-11-2015, 01:06   #199
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yep-but no liner. And no Plexus. Plus, you'll note in the pics you posted, this is not a drop in grid. It's a series of structural floor timbers glassed in place. This is how boats should be built.


Check out renderings here:

http://pacificseacraft.com/566287/renderings/
And no doubt balsa cored?


Nice looking boat; very innovative. Love the pilot house and separate cockpit.
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Old 17-11-2015, 01:36   #200
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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And no doubt balsa cored?


Nice looking boat; very innovative. Love the pilot house and separate cockpit.



Actually very similar to my boat. Except I prefer mine because I doubt you can see over the bow from this pilothouse, and my rig is more than 10' taller, with 500' plus more sail area. Plus, I have a bigger engine and more than twice as much tankage. Sure I'm 10k lbs heavier and 10' shorter; I'm sure this boat has much better light air performance, and overall performance for that matter. But I wouldn't call it innovative, nothing new and revolutionary (hence risky) there, just good old fashioned sound design and solid construction.


Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:


About our quality:


Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.

Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.


-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft



If only every builder operated this way! I think their reward should be-increased market share!
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Old 17-11-2015, 03:14   #201
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Actually very similar to my boat. Except I prefer mine because I doubt you can see over the bow from this pilothouse, and my rig is more than 10' taller, with 500' plus more sail area. Plus, I have a bigger engine and more than twice as much tankage. Sure I'm 10k lbs heavier and 10' shorter; I'm sure this boat has much better light air performance, and overall performance for that matter. But I wouldn't call it innovative, nothing new and revolutionary (hence risky) there, just good old fashioned sound design and solid construction.


Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:


About our quality:


Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.

Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.


-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft
Not built for the masses, means they will not scrimp (so to speak) on hull construction -- sounds like their hulls will be cored

The Pacific Seacraft 37 was cored above the waterline, and a fully cored hull (your choice of foam or balsa) was an extra cost option. The Pacific Seacraft 44 is fully cored. I don't know what technique they use.

I don't know what the construction of the 61 ketch is, but Bob Perry's large customs are all fully cored, as far as I know. Dollars to donuts, this one is too. I wrote to him to ask.

* * *

I have always admired Nauticats. Last winter in Yarmouth, on a cold day, I was berthed across from a family in theirs. How cozy they looked in their pilothouse! At that moment, I realized the pilothouse is not just for passagemaking. My next boat will have one for sure.

I also like the oversized machinery in Nauticats. I think that all modern cruising boats are actually motorsailers -- we just don't like to admit it. So having enough engine power to power upwind in strong weather is a really big plus. My next boat will have this, too. And a Hundested prop

But it will not be a Nauticat -- it will be light and fast. D/L of under 200. Narrow beam. About 60' -- 62' on deck. It will have a bit of Sundeer DNA in it. As to cored versus uncored hull for my next boat -- actually it will be neither. I think my next boat will be metal.
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Old 17-11-2015, 03:58   #202
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Just thought I'd post some candy that caught my eye recently:


Pacific Seacraft SouthSea 61 | Cruising World
BoB Perry design........
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Old 17-11-2015, 05:06   #203
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
The usual one pic per post on an iPhone.
Holy Crap that's insane... I thought construction techniques like that stopped at 25'....

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
My Nauticat is all Bruynzeel. Haven't found less than nine ply. All looks like the day it was built.
Thanks for makin' me google Bruynzeel.... I feel marginally smarter today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Just thought I'd post some candy that caught my eye recently:

Pacific Seacraft SouthSea 61 | Cruising World
Oh man.... That's so sweet.... If I had the 50/25/10/3%... I'd be in ...
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Old 17-11-2015, 07:30   #204
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
.. . .


Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:


About our quality:


Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.

Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.


-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft



If only every builder operated this way! I think their reward should be-increased market share!
Quick reply from the designer - the new Pacific Seacraft 61' ketch is fully cored, using foam.

You owe me a donut

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Old 17-11-2015, 19:18   #205
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I do wonder about cored hulls and the knock on them. Imagine it must be a quality and build issue, and maybe if you're past a certain age you are safe from defect, presuming you haven't breached the skin or added through hulls
There are scores of 30-40 year old perfectly sound Tartan 37s sailing around with cored hulls, and my 28 year old tartan 40 is fully cored as well, though the core is removed at midline and at every through hull fitting. Still dry as a bone by survey 18 months ago.
C&C has a bunch of vintage models still very actively being sailed.
A main objective for me in choosing a cruising boat was light air performance since that's what you find a lot out there. Not as interested in extreme latitudes so didn't want a tank. The cored hull adds lots of stiffness and sound/temp insulation without extra weight.


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Old 18-11-2015, 10:24   #206
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I don't have any personal issue with synthetic cores on hulls until I fix a old Privilege power cat with a 60% delaminated surface on both hulls, no water damage so far, just both skins loosing grip with the foam core... I guess this boat is build prior any infusion vacum technique ,,
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Old 19-11-2015, 10:58   #207
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.

I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.

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Old 19-11-2015, 13:11   #208
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.

I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.

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That part about 30% contact equal to any glassed stringer is wrong wrong wrong...
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Old 19-11-2015, 13:35   #209
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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That part about 30% contact equal to any glassed stringer is wrong wrong wrong...
In addition it is not just strength that is the issue. It is about access and the ability to repair damage were that to occur.
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Old 19-11-2015, 13:45   #210
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?

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Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.

I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.

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The concern with liners is access to infrastructure, and especially if repairs are required, as well as the concern of the actual integrity of the bonds used to connect the liner to the hull.

Experts like Minaret and neilpride work with the consequences of repairs were those issues occur. They are worth listening to.

It appears that a few manufactures that use liners do it better than others. IP apparently uses partial liners in a manner that at least infrastructure is accessible. I can't speak for repairs; I don't recall anyone making comments on that, but IP generally has a pretty good reputation.

My current boat does not have a liner, and is overbuilt in many ways. I am not looking for an immediate change, but do want to keep my eye open on good candidates. Dockhead has pointed out a very interesting prospect, the Southerly, with a fairly robust swing keel. More $$ than others, but certainly worth considering.

Concerns about liners is legitimate. As is concerns about what material though hulls use, electrical wiring and many other construction details. Backing of deck fixtures is important, and many builders skimp on that small issue not using proper backing plates.

Is the perfect boat out there? Of course not, unless one has an unlimited budget, but at least a buyer should be cognizant of relevant issues, and then decide which deficiencies they can accept, and what features are a must have.
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