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Old 24-03-2013, 22:15   #61
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by susswein View Post
Speaking of cats not letting you know when they're overcanvassed:

Does anyone know of a force gauge/alarm that you could attach to the side stays of a cat that might give some advance warning of a potential flip?

Or is this a completely stupid owner from a non cat owner?
I have heard this myth lots. I am certainly not an expert but I can tell when the wind is up. I can tell when pressure is increasing, and because a multi will actually slow down when carrying too much sail I can tell when its time to reef so I can actually increase speed.

If you cant tell when the wind is blowing - then you shouldnt be sailing.
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Old 24-03-2013, 22:25   #62
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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He is definitely right about you being wrong. Ramtha (a simpson cat) has virtually no damage when recovered and like 44C I have been on the boat since. Heartlight was floating quite happilly un till the interesting owners asked for it to be set to its doom.


That's not what is described in the book, which has transcriptions of the radio logs. The owners of Heart Light may have been kooky, but they described loss of steering, stove in large portholes, failed bulkheads, and I vividly remember their description of a large 2" wide crack in the house roof which opened and shut every time the boat flexed in the waves. She was far from "floating quite happily".
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Old 25-03-2013, 00:03   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor
?......... and because a multi will actually slow down when carrying too much sail I can tell when its time to reef so I can actually increase speed.

:
Can you explain this in more detail, Factor?

(It worked for us on our old mono and was due to excessive heel. Never seen it on our cat, which just goes faster.)
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Old 25-03-2013, 01:19   #64
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

.....All in all the multi hull boats did pretty well, as did a much larger number of monos. It was a storm of exceptional strength and anyone who survived it can pride themselves on their seamanship... and their good luck.

Cheers,

Jim
Agreed. IMO there are many good and valid reasons to prefer one over the other, but safety isn't one of them. Both types can be as safe or as unsafe as the crew allows them to be.

If anything the QBS did demonstrate that a cat', left to it's own devices, can stay upright through some pretty severe conditions.
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Old 25-03-2013, 02:18   #65
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Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post

Can you explain this in more detail, Factor?

(It worked for us on our old mono and was due to excessive heel. Never seen it on our cat, which just goes faster.)
When over canvassed, the leeward hull gets buried and creates excess drag, thus the boat slows down and putting in a reef will actually give u better speed as the boat flattens out.
Edit: I realise that in this context, faster is not actually better, but you know what I mean.
The excess drag here is a design feature somewhat particular to cruising cats, as beach/race cats are designed to go fastest when almost on one hull... and the REALLY fast ones do it on no hulls! (AC72)
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Old 25-03-2013, 04:37   #66
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
LOL...
Oh... regarding the cat's flipping.. those were the early ones like Catalac's, Iroquois, Bobcats and the like due to the narrow beam... .......................................
Surprised at you for this statement. Tom Lack offered 20000 GBP for the first person to lift a hull in an unmodified catalac (This was 40 years ago, so was worth a lopt of money). It was never claimed.

I know of only one catalac that was lost due to capsize, and that was a heavily modified boat. I know of a very small number that have pitchpoled. I believe the same comment is also true for bobcats.

Iroquois are a different matter intirely - they were designed by a dinghy racer and are well known for tripping ove their dagger boards. This class are the primary cause of the catamarans capsize saga.

As you well know the incidence of capsize of true cruising catamarans is significantly lower than that of monohulls losing their keel.
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Old 25-03-2013, 05:15   #67
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Re: Mono vs multihull

Quartermaster was a Whiting 40, not a Lidgard. It is a mystery what happened to the boat that caused them to abandon. (they found a empty liferaft with the eprib in it).

There were many mono hulls out there and very few cats you have to remember. And this was many years ago, if it happened today, there would be a lot more Beneteaus/Braveria type boats as well as a lot more cruising cats, judging by what we saw in Tonga this season. What would the outcome be? and would it happen at all with today's weather forecasting and GRIB files.


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Yes, Sigh...

The only Catalac involved did not survive unscathed. It was abandoned, the crew taken aboard a Fijian cargo vessel, and the Catalac was then DELIBERATELY rammed and sunk. This was at the insistence of the owners wife who believed that the storm was some sort of intergalactic struggle between the forces of good and evil. She wrote a book about the incident which was, errr, interesting reading! The boat had been doing pretty well in the hands of folks who were seriously lacking in experience and good judgement.

The boat that was lost with all hands was a Lidgard 40 named Quartermaster. Not long before she was apparently overwhelmed they were active on the SSB trying to help others who were having severe problems. One, a Cheoy Lee Offshore 40 named Mary T was taking on water through the cockpit hatches faster than they could get rid of it. QM was offering helpful suggestions which aided the crew in saving that boat.

The only boat that could be said to have come through unscathed was Heart of Gold, a Schumaker 50 which left with the mob but piled on sail and outran the worst of the storm and safely arrived in Tonga. Jim and Sue Corenman thus proved that in some cases a really fast yacht can escape bad weather.

All in all the multi hull boats did pretty well, as did a much larger number of monos. It was a storm of exceptional strength and anyone who survived it can pride themselves on their seamanship... and their good luck.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 25-03-2013, 05:35   #68
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by Wannabe-007 View Post
When over canvassed, the leeward hull gets buried and creates excess drag, thus the boat slows down and putting in a reef will actually give u better speed as the boat flattens out.
Edit: I realise that in this context, faster is not actually better, but you know what I mean.
The excess drag here is a design feature somewhat particular to cruising cats, as beach/race cats are designed to go fastest when almost on one hull... and the REALLY fast ones do it on no hulls! (AC72)
I wouldn't say this is correct for ALL cruising cats.
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Old 25-03-2013, 07:12   #69
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pirate Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
Surprised at you for this statement. Tom Lack offered 20000 GBP for the first person to lift a hull in an unmodified catalac (This was 40 years ago, so was worth a lopt of money). It was never claimed.

I know of only one catalac that was lost due to capsize, and that was a heavily modified boat. I know of a very small number that have pitchpoled. I believe the same comment is also true for bobcats.

Iroquois are a different matter intirely - they were designed by a dinghy racer and are well known for tripping ove their dagger boards. This class are the primary cause of the catamarans capsize saga.

As you well know the incidence of capsize of true cruising catamarans is significantly lower than that of monohulls losing their keel.
Why should you be surprised... I've seen an Iroquois go over in Poole Bay... early Prouts and other narrow beamed marques went over along the UK S.coast in the 60's/70's and 80's... why dya think I buy Wharram...
But seriously it was those early days that started the 'Capsize Legend'... usually caused by bad judgment.. turning beam on etc..
A little Bobcat made it round the Horn in the 70's so I know what they're capable of if handled sensibly... most any Cat for that matter..
On the ratio's however if you extract racing mono's and stick to cruising boats the gap is much smaller...
Remember... Life is a 50/50 affair..

One thing you don't find on your type of cruising Cats I've noticed is the tendency to overtake the apparent wind.. must be a low windage Wharram thing...
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Old 25-03-2013, 08:16   #70
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So would it be fair to say cats use to be tippy but as new technology develops they are becoming more stable/safe then a mono haul which hasn't changed since the time of the Vikings.
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Old 25-03-2013, 08:49   #71
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Re: Mono vs multihull

My Searunner 40 trimaran has a built-in boatspeed-to-windspeed indicator. When the water flowing by approaches the leeward deck, we've got too much sail up. Time to reef.
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Old 25-03-2013, 09:09   #72
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Re: Mono vs multihull

you need to sail a lot of boats before buying one boat. have fun and good luck. there is no best boat, but there is a best boat for you. sail em all before you choose--it is hard to resell these days.
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Old 25-03-2013, 09:51   #73
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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Originally Posted by Wylieh View Post
So would it be fair to say cats use to be tippy but as new technology develops they are becoming more stable/safe then a mono haul which hasn't changed since the time of the Vikings.
Not really.

The designs of both have evolved over time (some of that down to new technology, some from lessons learnt the hard way, some from thinking and some from taking a WAG!) and the knowledge of their Sailors has also increased to gain the best from each......and to avoid the worst of each. But that latter part very much a YMMV thing .
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Old 25-03-2013, 12:35   #74
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So it's like looking for a wife, test drive untill you get what you want or just get comfortable. I just hate the thought of spending so much money renting something I could own. Anyone know any good rent vs buy a boat comparisons.
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Old 25-03-2013, 13:44   #75
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Re: Mono vs multihull

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So it's like looking for a wife, test drive untill you get what you want or just get comfortable. I just hate the thought of spending so much money renting something I could own. Anyone know any good rent vs buy a boat comparisons.
I replied to this in your other thread.
It gets a bit confusing when you're asking the same question in two different places.
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