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Old 26-01-2008, 12:09   #16
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Daddy, I'd be skeptical of a trend of IT owners deciding to just do away with the mizzen for the sake of deck-clearing. I'm no naval architect, but it seems like the main mast would just be too far forward to make a decent sloop rig.
I have to agree with you on this.
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Old 26-01-2008, 12:14   #17
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Geoff,Richard Hartly designed the Tahitian,well,I presume so.Mudnut.
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Old 26-01-2008, 12:36   #18
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Correct. Richard Hartley. However, there were as many variations of design as there were boats built. The "nuts and bolts" part of the design saw two boat types. The Ketch and the Sloop. However, I have also seen Cutter designs as well. Of which I think tend to be the more glamorous, as the cutter bow really enchances the lines of the original design. Although Hartely had many designs of yacht hulls, there is actualy only two main concepts. The Tahitian and the Southsea's. All the other designs were reworked versions of these two main hull drawings.
Anyway, back to the topic, if you note with the picture, the sail plan is well balanced over the hull. The main mast is quite someways forward. For the 45ft version (which is the photo) there is about 14ft from the main mast to the head of the bow. The sloop version is ruffly the same. However, the mainsail on the sloop version has a foot of some 19ft. The ketch mainsail is a little shorter than that. One of the big advantages of the Ketch though, is a fourth sail. We have never flown ours yet. It would be flown when we are going to be sailing for sometime I think. I am not sure what the name of it is, but it fly's in front of the mizzen and the top is attaced to a halyard that exits the mizzen mast at the front. The luff of the sail runs from the top of the mizzen and conncts to the deck a few feet behind the main mast. The luff is free flying, if that's the correct term. In otherwords, there is no forestay from the top of the mizzen to the deck, and tha sails foot is loose as well. I can't wait to actually fly this thing. Now that we are into supposedly lighter air type weather from now on, I just may give it a ago and see what she looks like.
The photo is the first time I have actually seen her sailing with all three up. Thanks to Darryl and Paula from Seafox who took the shot.
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Old 26-01-2008, 13:52   #19
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Wheels, what you're describing sounds like the "mizzen stays'l" that John was talking about. I'm very interested, as I'm right now having my rigging re-done in Trinidad, and it would be timely to provide for such a contingency. Do you have any photos of the attachment point for the tack of that sail? Is it an eye or block set into the deck, and do you have one on both sides? And then, how is it sheeted in? Or, by "free flying" do you mean, it isn't?
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Old 26-01-2008, 15:05   #20
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Some really good questions there Geoff. errr, when I find out I'll let ya know. I hadn't really thought of all those points untill you mentioned them. This is a little more complex than I gave thought to.
The blue prints show the Tack to be about a foot behind the main mast on the deck. So I imagine it will be a pad eye.
Free flying, I mean it has no forestay that it is hanked onto and no boom for the foot of the sail. The only connection points are mizzen halyard and the tack connection point.
I believe there is another variation of this sail, maybe on a schooner or something, but the sail is flown upside down and fills the entire empty space between mainsail and mizzen mast. But I am waaay out of my depth here.
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Old 26-01-2008, 15:41   #21
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I forgot to mention, but the reason I posted the photo was to show the sail balance. If you take away the mizzen, you will note the Main and it's sail plan are a long way forward. The sloop will have the main mast ruffly the same place, perhaps a foot or two further back, but carry a much larger main with a much much longer foot. As I understand it, the centre of effort would be furhter back with the sloop desing mainsail, but too far forward with the Ketch design mainsail. The mizzen balances that centre of effort again.
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Old 26-01-2008, 15:48   #22
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I look forward to hearing about your investigations of Leisure Lady's preferences. Get right on that, will ya? (wink)

I imagine, like all things Sailing there is a different rigging philosophy for every boat owner. But I must think there are some fundamentals that would benefit a ketch rookie like m'self. Does anyone out there know of a primmer on ketch-rig sailing?

Oh, and sorry, Dad about hijacking your thread. I have a tendancy to do that.
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Old 26-01-2008, 16:21   #23
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Endeavour 43 Ketch w/Mizzen Stay'sl

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...1&d=1201389330

Don't know if this picture will show up or not.

Anyway, this is a sistership ... not mine. Although I do have a mizzen stay'sl - I've yet to fly her.
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Old 26-01-2008, 18:26   #24
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Oh, and sorry, Dad about hijacking your thread. I have a tendancy to do that.
Actually it fits in at a stretch. It's still about mizzen mast and rigging and I've been taking notes. Besides once mentioned, I wanted to know more about this anyway.
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Old 26-01-2008, 18:43   #25
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Thanks Elusive. A picture is worth a thousand words. As you can see, without the mizzen mast you don't have the opportunity to fly this sail.
Alan, it is a mizzen staysail. If you have one then you need to get it up and flying. Of course you don't fly it if you'll be tacking soon and you only use it when sailing on a reach. The halyard goes to the top of the mizzen mast. The tack is on a strong padeye to windward of the mast. I say that because I had two, one on each side the mast about a foot away from the mainmast base. You could just have one at the base of the mainmast if that's what you want. As I said earlier it is sheeted on a cheek block on the aft end of the mizzen boom. I had a cheek block on both sides of the boom and ran the sheet through the cheek block (leeward side) to a cleat on the mizzen mast.
In light winds (less than 15) it really added speed to my Mariner.
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Old 27-01-2008, 08:10   #26
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Very instructive, Elusive and John, thanks!
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Old 27-01-2008, 11:54   #27
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Well I was thinking of installing two tracks on the deck, starting at and running aft of the main mast. this is for heavier winds when I furl in the Genoa part way. The tracks on the outside rails are too far out when heavily reefed. The sail does not pull in toward the center line enough for me to sail at a close angle. So a means of sheeting to a new point closer to the center line would aid that part. These same tracks could then be used for the tack of the Mizzen stays'll.
Another job to do, Ooo I'm all excited about trying this now.
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Old 27-01-2008, 14:22   #28
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So a mid-line connection for the tack would be better than something to windward? I would like to avoid the trip hazard and leak point of setting a new fitting into the deck, and was contemplating eyes on the gunwale port and starboard astride the main mast, but that might not be a good sail shape. I wonder, if there's enough real-estate on the main mast itself below the winches, if a solid eye on each side would work. Actually, might it be important to tighten up the luff, such that one would want a block there you could turn to a winch or at least a cleat?

And, Thomas, it's hard to tell from the photo, but does the sail's foot go further aft than the mizzen mast (in the same way a 100%+ genoa goes past a main mast), or is that in fact a right triangle?
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Old 27-01-2008, 15:10   #29
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Geoff - it does go past. And more so on MY boat. I cleat the tack to my midship cleats; They are located about 4 feet aft of the main mast. Except for the head of the stay'sl, I have a long lanyard attached to the tack and sheet to the clew. This gives me full latitude in adjusting the sail (or so I hope). Same with my spinnaker (Asymmetrical) - as for the long lanyard attached to the tack.
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Old 27-01-2008, 15:20   #30
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Aloha Geoff,
If you put the padeye on the toerail/gunwale then you could use the sail downwind. My mizzen stay'sl. Was longer at the foot to stretch past the mizzen mast and sheeted at the aft end of the mizzen boom. The sails are made of spinnaker material and should be cut full so they balloon out. The really aren't designed to go to weather but I suppose you could make a tougher one in a flatter cut to try it beating close hauled to weather.
I think each ketch design might act just a little bit differently once you get these sails up and it would be good to just experiment as much as possible to find your preference. Elusives photo shows five sails pulling at once. It wouldn't take much of a breeze to get the boat moving with all the square feet up there.
Kind Regards,
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