Merriman centerboard winch will raise but not lower centerboard - stuck in la paz

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Attached are two close-ups of the old pawl.
The side with the T's on it is the top.
I also attached a pic that shows where the pawl sits.
The pawl goes on the side of the small gear opposite the square post for the winch handle, and that goes in the offset spot in the housing.
The gear and the housing are smooth, so not sure how it would work, but if you think I should try putting those smooth spots in I've still got the dremel out

You can see in this picture the old prawl was being worn away by the misalignment of the main gear in the housing.
I suggested that you repair this issue because it will continue to be a problem in the future. The upper housing bushing that holds the gear shaft at the top.
Also if because those gears have been wearing in a way that is not true to the original gear cut, then when you disassembled the winch, it would then be out of its worn pattern and most likely, BIND if reassembled without this in mind.
I would repair the bushing to assure it is as close to its original assembly position as possiable, and try to find which teeth are now binding, then carefully file those teeth to allow it to release.
Just a possiablity.
It is really obvious it's been wearing wrong, and the prawl was weakened because of this problem.
If you don't do something to correct this issue, because the new prawl is made of much harder metal it's going to wear at the gear face and damage it.


Sent from SV Cloud Duster

[secrabtree]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

any ideas why the top of the spindle has this corkscrew in it? Maybe a part is missing from here?

What this looks like to me is that the "spiral" moves the drum in or out depending upon the direction of rotation of the handle, of course assuming the handle is on the shaft that has the "spiral". The drum wouldn't have to move very far to either engage the pawls when the handle is rotated in one direction or move away from the pawls when the handle is rotated in the other direction. This would accomplish the same thing as in the usual CB winch where the operator turning the handle moves a small lever to disengage the pawls.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

any ideas why the top of the spindle has this corkscrew in it? Maybe a part is missing from here?

Is that "corkscrew" not a wavy spring washer?
Looks that way, or is it a machined spiral.


Sent from SV Cloud Duster

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by secrabtree

What this looks like to me is that the "spiral" moves the drum in or out depending upon the direction of rotation of the handle, of course assuming the handle is on the shaft that has the "spiral". The drum wouldn't have to move very far to either engage the pawls when the handle is rotated in one direction or move away from the pawls when the handle is rotated in the other direction. This would accomplish the same thing as in the usual CB winch where the operator turning the handle moves a small lever to disengage the pawls.

I don't think that engages with anything, the spiral is probably a spring washer keeping the thing from rattling takes up extra movement, in the gears


Sent from SV Cloud Duster

[autumnbreeze27]

I got an email from another Herreshoff 50 owner who lost his centerboard in the pacific. He says it's all in the tension of the spring, too much or too little it won't work?

I printed the picture I took of it and pretty much had it right on the money, but it still was no bueno.

So I guess I'll try a few more times and then find out if I can turn it into a coffee grinder or something useful.

[skipmac]

Scrap value for bronze is pretty good these days.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

1. I assume you could raise and lower the centerboard before the repairs?
Yes, when we raised the centerboard you could hear the pawl go click-click-click by turning the handle clockwise. Turning the handle counter-clockwise would lower it with no noise. Now when I turn the winch clockwise it goes click-click as expected, but it binds up when turning it counterclockwise.
2. I also assume this is a reel winch IE one that wraps a wire cable up around a drum like line on a fishing reel?
Yes

If yes to #1 and #2 then

- Is the new pawl exactly identical to the old one?
the new one is stainless steel instead of brass/bronze. It is very close to the same, I can keep trying to get it exact but soon I'll have removed too much material. I am trying to get somebody to braze the old brass/bronze piece back together to see if that makes a difference.
- Was there a spring or lever to release the pawl to allow the cable to unwind and the CB to lower? Is that still there and properly installed?
there was no manual process needed to lower, it went up or down depending on which way you rotated the handle. I searched but could not find any other parts.
3. CBs usually lower by giving slack to the cable and letting gravity do the job. Have you checked to make sure the CB isn't jammed or bent, the CB trunk is clear of debris or to verify there is no other reason to prevent the CB from dropping?
The CB is free. We have been keeping it up by tieing off the winch handle to a winch on the cabin top.

I posted some pics in another thread, let me know if posting any more would help--I'd repost those but the internet in the marina is hit and miss as to speed.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ch-156654.html

Thank you for your help!

Your winch sounds very much like the shore station lift we used for many years. A wheel is turned to operate the drum through a gear reduction. Cable winds up on a drum. When operated in reverse, the drive train partially unscrews the compression on a slip clutch pack. This allows the drum to back but only to the extent that the tensioning screw is eased. You must continue backing the screw for the drum to back. One time this broke. It was the pawl. I made a new one but also found there was damage done to the clutch-totally jammed. I had to also rebuild the slip-clutch to regain the 'down' operation.

Can you find a mechanical manual on line? Perhaps the maker can E-Mail one to you.

[Drifty]

When we were in Cabo in 1981, there was a cruizing net at a certain time every day. If someone had a problem, they contacted the net and everybody and their brother was more than willing to help. A fellow cruizer and I even wrote a little ditty and played it for everyone. It went like this: " I came down to cabo to stay out of trouble with only one pound of baloney. I got on the net and I started to get all the things people wanted to loan me. I guess I got greedy, now I'm in Tahiti, I owe all my cruizin' to Sony. Thank you, thank you, thank you Cabo Net (Repeat)" Sony was the boat who was hosting the net at that time. We had such a wonderful time down there!

[jimbunyard]

Have you had any luck with it?

It appears to me that the problem is with the relationship between the pawl, the spring, the teeth the pawl engages on the drum, and possibly the angle of the tooth on the new pawl.

I've not been able to find any diagrams of the winch.

Are the teeth that the pawl engages the same teeth that the drive gear uses to turn the drum?

My guess is that the spring somehow unloads the pawl when the crank is turned, and that the relationship between the pawl and the teeth has been distorted somehow.

Can you post a picture showing the pawl, the drive gear, and the drum, from the drum side, assembled outside of the housing, to give an idea of how they work together?

[autumnbreeze27]

The pawl engages the smaller set of gears closer to the drum. You can see some wear from the pawl pounding on them.

I made no progress yesterday. I'm going to see if a welder today can weld the old pawl back together. Otherwise I'm going to try and figure out how to jury-rig a way to lock it down without the pawl in it at all. I need to get it squared away before Sandra gets here.

I might try some more dremel on the pawl later today if time allows.

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by Drifty

When we were in Cabo in 1981, there was a cruizing net at a certain time every day. If someone had a problem, they contacted the net and everybody and their brother was more than willing to help. A fellow cruizer and I even wrote a little ditty and played it for everyone. It went like this: " I came down to cabo to stay out of trouble with only one pound of baloney. I got on the net and I started to get all the things people wanted to loan me. I guess I got greedy, now I'm in Tahiti, I owe all my cruizin' to Sony. Thank you, thank you, thank you Cabo Net (Repeat)" Sony was the boat who was hosting the net at that time. We had such a wonderful time down there!

Cool story. I've tried the net here in la paz, which got me the guy's name at the machine shop, but I wasn't very impressed with his work.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

The pawl engages the smaller set of gears closer to the drum. You can see some wear from the pawl pounding on them.

I made no progress yesterday. I'm going to see if a welder today can weld the old pawl back together. Otherwise I'm going to try and figure out how to jury-rig a way to lock it down without the pawl in it at all. I need to get it squared away before Sandra gets here.

I might try some more dremel on the pawl later today if time allows.

I'm sometimes an optimist, from what I can see, I think if the angles on the pawl are close to the original, you should be able to get it to work by manipulating the spring geometry.

As a permanent fix, even if a welder is able to repair the original, chances of it ever being as strong as new are virtually zero, and you'll still have to work with the dremel to get the profile back after welding.

Don't know what your plan is to do away with the pawl, assume some kind of restraint on the crank mechanism. Seems kinda ok for a temporary fix, but dangerous otherwise. It would be easy to make the pawl manual, operated by a pushrod, spring and lever, by drilling through the winch housing just above the pawl, perpendicular to its' travel...

And regarding Sandra, while it's certainly a very good idea to be a good scout (prepared), as of this morning, the National Hurricane Centers' forecast is for the hurricane to pass 175 miles to the southeast of you as a depression or low pressure area. So hopefully, for you it'll be just 30-40 knots from the northeast, north and northwest. Keep your fingers crossed...

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

I'm sometimes an optimist, from what I can see, I think if the angles on the pawl are close to the original, you should be able to get it to work by manipulating the spring geometry.

As a permanent fix, even if a welder is able to repair the original, chances of it ever being as strong as new are virtually zero, and you'll still have to work with the dremel to get the profile back after welding.

Don't know what your plan is to do away with the pawl, assume some kind of restraint on the crank mechanism. Seems kinda ok for a temporary fix, but dangerous otherwise. It would be easy to make the pawl manual, operated by a pushrod, spring and lever, by drilling through the winch housing just above the pawl, perpendicular to its' travel...

And regarding Sandra, while it's certainly a very good idea to be a good scout (prepared), as of this morning, the National Hurricane Centers' forecast is for the hurricane to pass 175 miles to the southeast of you as a depression or low pressure area. So hopefully, for you it'll be just 30-40 knots from the northeast, north and northwest. Keep your fingers crossed...

Interesting... would love to hear more details about how people would modify this thing. I was going to drill a hole behind the pawl and put a line on it so I could pull it back, but ideally we'd like to be able to operate it from the cockpit, and not require 2 people, since we are a crew of 2.

Been watching Sandra for a while... the forecast is the best so far, showing it breaking up below cabo. I thought for sure it was going to hit mazatlan, people there say the water is 87F.

[autumnbreeze27]

Here's an update, for those of you keeping score.

Merriman winch 16, me 0

I had the original pawl repaired, but it doesn't work either.

So I drilled a hole behind it, so I could rig something to pull it away to disengage, but that didn't work.

As it stands I'm going to try different length pendants to lock it off and just run the winch without the pawl.

Or I might try putting a bounty on it on the morning net, but typically if I can't figure something out with the help of the internet, it's FUBAR.

Thanks all for the help!

[jimbunyard]

With the cover on and the pawl not installed, how much endplay is there
between the drum and housing? If there is any, have you tried to center the drum in the housing so there's no endplay? You could use any material
to make washers of varying thickness for testing (plastic cups or even paper come to mind), and get the right thickness of metal shim stock if it works.

My guess is that when going up, the pawl rides over the gear as designed, but when going down, the pawl is contacting the drum, preventing the pawl from being kicked up by the spring (or by whatever obscure mechanism is at play).

Does lubrication make any difference?

Also, can't tell from the picture of the cover, but I've seen cases where there's a single ball bearing that sits in a dimple in the end of a shaft for thrust and positioning purposes. They are easily lost (ask me how I know), but you can tell if there's supposed to be one there by cleaning the bore in the cover and seeing if there's a corresponding ball seat in the cover.