Marine surveyor liability. Opinions, please.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Sea Life

Not all marine surveyors carry E&O insurance. .

I wish I could write this bigger/louder/more emphatically:

Never hire a surveyor who doesn't have E&O insurance. NEVER!

[Fore and Aft]

Well you made my heart skip a beat when I read the title of your thread John. As a marine surveyor I am not surprised that your surveyor missed something. It can be quite a challenge to survey a vessel and not miss an issue. Every vessel has literally hundreds of items to look at and to do that in a timely fashion is quite a skill. That's why it is good to have the owner present, four eyes is better than two.
Have you contacted the surveyor and heard what he has to say? If you had been my client I would like to have heard from you and also inspected my mistake. Every surveyor has a different opinion so it would have been interested to see what he thought of the damaged area?
12% discount sounds pretty steep for a two foot section of hull that was not laminated to the stringers. If that is all it is then you could repair that in an afternoon. Remember the new surveyor is working for the buyer so he is potentially going to make the damage sound worse than it really is. Countless times I have been asked to make my survey sound worse than What is there.
S/V Illusion is right in saying that not all marine surveyors are insured. I have a surveyor right now who is trying to screw me out of business and he is definitely not insured.
Cheers

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I have a surveyor right now who is trying to screw me out of business
Cheers

I think that's called ... competition

[MV Wanderlust]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

John Easley:

Presumably, the delamination had not yet occurred when the boat originally was surveyed for you. No way he or she can be held responsible for that, if it was sound at that time, and I think it was because he tapped all over the hull, by your report.

Ann

Hmm... yes, I suppose that could be the case, Ann. We were going by the buyers' surveyor's comment about it had likely been that way for years. But you could very well be right.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I wish I could write this bigger/louder/more emphatically:

Never hire a surveyor who doesn't have E&O insurance. NEVER!

Never hire a surveyor who doesn't have E&O insurance. NEVER!

There ya' go.

[Captsteve53]

Just for those who think you just pay your $2000 and you become a surveyor(Maybe a US surveyor?) no bodies/agencies mentioned!, i am a full registered member of the International Institute of Marine Surveyors (UK) Lloyd's Maritime Certified (With Distinction),

The IIMS https://www.iims.org.uk/ Has Surveyors available world wide inclusive USA all can be checked on the WEB Site as to qualifications and specialty area's of expertise, Complaints to the IIMS is welcome regarding Surveyors and at least in the UK all must carry Insurance other wise the member ship is cancelled,

I have been a Marine Engineer 1 and Maritime Master/ships superintendent for 40 years and took me 3 Months / Numerous References from Government Surveyors and Government agencies to even be considered as an applicant plus the obvious financials , for the Lloyd's Certification it was one full year of additional study with exams quarterly ranging from Business Practice/Legal/Insurance/Engineering/Seamanship/Stability/Surveying/Electrical/Construction/Corrosion Analysis/Chemical/Fire/Vibration Analysis/Rules and Regulations/Electronic survey equipment/ and so forth, the financials for this are more than some pay for there boat, the insurance for professional practice standards cost over $2500 a year before a Survey is carried out.

To keep your standing with the IIMS one must complete a certain points tally yearly submitted as Surveys done/Learning Courses/Membership Professional Bodies/Written Submitted Marine Publications/ Boat Shows attended/ Specialist Marine training/ The IIMS runs on line, live via video link training sessions all year which a member must attend and many available for the public (listed on the Web Site).

So PLEASE do not place all Surveyors and Surveying organizations in one box
and ask questions when hiring a Surveyor where his specialist area's lie, before engaging: mine is for the record is Pleasure and Commercial vessel survey's under 40 meters and Specialist mechanical survey's


Steve Warren NZ Chief Eng 1- (MIIMS-Lloyd's Maritime Certified)

[Pearson Stu]

On the other hand, 1st surveyor could argue that 13 months ago, the percussive testing yielded no vibration or indication of a problem and that 13 months is sufficient time for a hidden problem to manifest itself. Not defending the surveyor....just sayin'.

[Sawbonz]

Just because I think you will find it interesting I will tell my story of the home surveyor when we moved back to Florida. He missed a hole in the roof by not looking in the attic and I could prove it because his report said that the attic wasn't accessible because the previous owner's car was parked underneath. When the rains came and I had to pay for the repair I contacted him and he returned the price I paid for the survey, which was woefully inadequate. I took him to small claims court.

At the bottom of his contract was a statement that limited his liability to the refund he had already given me. I thought that I would bypass this because I had ordered the report from out of state, had never seen the contract AND where it called for a signature was typed in "PURCHASER NOT PRESENT". I will be darned if that idiot judge didn't uphold the terms! Terms I had never even seen, much less agreed to.

[Alex_V]

Not saying this is the case, not at all. Just for an argument sake - who is not to say that the hull damage / repair occurred after first survey was done? Is there a way to prove the exact date of the repair?

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

So PLEASE do not place all Surveyors and Surveying organizations in one box...

Absolutely true, and an important point. There are organizations out there that require real experience, and real expertise, before they will "certify" a surveyor. These are the kinds of certifications that you want to look for.

Sadly, on the other hand, at least here in the U.S., there are some organizations that require almost nothing more than paying the membership fee, in order to "certify" a surveyor.

As a consumer, you need to realize that there is this distinction, you have to make the effort to understand which certifications mean something and which don't, and then you have to select a surveyor who has a MEANINGFUL certification!

[MV Wanderlust]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

That's why it is good to have the owner present, four eyes is better than two.

Oh, you can bet the survey for our next boat will be completely different. I will be glued to the surveyor's shoulder and asking why he or she didn't inspect or comment or photograph anything I think they missed. And I'll be asking detailed questions about the things they did observe.

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Have you contacted the surveyor and heard what he has to say? If you had been my client I would like to have heard from you and also inspected my mistake.

Yes, I sent him the results of the survey. The accompanying message was carefully worded to avoid direct accusations but made it clear we felt there was a problem. That was two weeks ago. He has not responded.

[MV Wanderlust]

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

ask questions when hiring a Surveyor where his specialist area's lie, before engaging: mine is for the record is Pleasure and Commercial vessel survey's under 40 meters and Specialist mechanical survey's

Thanks, Steve. Good tip. Will definitely do that next time. Boy, this has been a real eye-opening experience.

[rossny]

I hired a surveyor to go back and re examine a boat I liked that was too far away to return to and among other things that this guy told me was ok was that he could see only one drop of water coming from the hatch after a big rainstorm. He said sea trial was good (I only was at the boat on the hard). OK one drop, no big deal to fix, well I bought the boat and as I left the harbor it started raining and only ONE hatch and ONE port did not leak... NINE LEAKS. Also as I stood in the cockpit the topping lift let go with the boom sideswiping my head. He found a couple of things wrong but missed many others and then sent me a bill for several hundred dollars more than he quoted me on the phone. I told him that he did a terrible survey of my boat but I payed him the original quoted amount.
I do not want to name the guy in case he was just having a bad day but I would not have bought a project and I got stuck with the project because he had SAMS® AMS® after his name and he was an ex coasty and talked well of his experience and abilities. There should be a SAMS® and AMS® complaint site as well as a recommendation site to warn people and promote the reliable surveyors. Rant over and out....

[Three Sisters]

Originally Posted by JohnEasley

Thanks for the input, everyone. It sounds like we probably won't pursue this. Good information, though. It'll probably come up again some time.

You may get a break by declaring a capital loss at IRS time. You may. If you can, there may be a carry-over of the loss applicable to future filings. Lots of maybes.

[boatpoker]

How to Become a Marine Surveyor

How to Choose a Marine Surveyor