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Old 17-06-2012, 22:10   #61
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

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Good observation, no they arent exactly level..neither is the boat right now. The whole boat lists slightly to port, so finishing the job now could end in disaster.
.manitu

I usually make the yard level the boat both fore and aft and athwartships when they block it for this reason. They hate this however, so I have resorted to using a digital level a whole lot. You can re-zero it at any angle or just do the math yourself, if the boat is 3 deg. from level athwartships you just make the floors the same. Then you run a long straight edge over all of them before bonding or glassing. This is one of the reasons I suggested you do the stages I did, sometimes you need to put in some little shims while bonding to get everything perfectly in plane. As I said, it's really cosmetic though. I have to do it because I get paid and they expect perfection when they shell out the big bucks.
I think your double sump plan will work out OK, though I personally wouldn't go that route. Drilling and installing limber holes shouldn't be more work than foam filling and glassing in your whole bilge, though I can see the appeal. I think it is a better solution too, as you will have a bigger bilge, both for water control and storage, and you will still be able to see your keel bolts and check them or retorque them. You want this.
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Old 18-06-2012, 02:40   #62
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

The jury is still out , regarding how to finish the cabin floor. For now, I'll leave it as is. The structural repairs has priority. Then I'll sail her for a couple of days , before deciding.

But first I got some minor details to figure out:
What sealer would you use around the keelbolts?
Any ideas on how to fixate the lower keelbolt nuts , so the upper nuts can be retorqued?

.manitu
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Old 18-06-2012, 04:01   #63
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

About the spaces between the floors.. I wonder if I could make watertight battery-boxes and place the lithium cells for my diesel-electric engine there?
If I make a watertight seal around the whole area and a removeable lid on top, I would still be able to check the keelbolts , and control the battery well for water.. I got plenty of space for batteries where the engine and gear is now , but i need space for the generator too..

I'm not shure however , if I want 48V live current down low in the bilge....

Some of you might be sceptical regarding electric propulsion , but my mind is set. I'll use a 15hp PMAC brushless motor , and a 5hp diesel generator.
This gives me 220v domestic voltage, and 5hp continous propulsion(15hp with charged batteries). the generator will run on anything from diesel to coocking oil, even lard+methanol+ caustic soda will do if it has to.

Just as you know it , I'm no stranger to electric motors.
Here is my home made electric bike , Top speed 50mph range 100miles.


.manitu
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Old 18-06-2012, 09:47   #64
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

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Originally Posted by manitu View Post
The jury is still out , regarding how to finish the cabin floor. For now, I'll leave it as is. The structural repairs has priority. Then I'll sail her for a couple of days , before deciding.

But first I got some minor details to figure out:
What sealer would you use around the keelbolts?
Any ideas on how to fixate the lower keelbolt nuts , so the upper nuts can be retorqued?

.manitu

I like 4200. Everyone has their preference. I would epoxy fill and fair the holes for the nuts, I've never seen any that big. I'd also consider glassing over the fill, it's a huge fill to make. I would hot glue a plywood strip over the holes with a cutout, hole, or zirc fitting at the top for each cavity and a release material on the inside of the ply, and then pour a high density low exotherm material such as Chockfast Orange into the cavities. This will capture the nuts and fill the cavities in one pour with a material that is highly unlikely to crack (though it is moderately expensive) . Then pull the plywwod forms, spot fill as necessary, sand fair, and glass a few layers over the keel stub/ballast keel joint, covering the pour at the same time. That's what I'd do if it was my boat and I meant to keep it and use it well.
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Old 18-06-2012, 09:51   #65
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitu View Post
About the spaces between the floors.. I wonder if I could make watertight battery-boxes and place the lithium cells for my diesel-electric engine there?
If I make a watertight seal around the whole area and a removeable lid on top, I would still be able to check the keelbolts , and control the battery well for water.. I got plenty of space for batteries where the engine and gear is now , but i need space for the generator too..


Check the size of the spaces carefully first, I doubt theres enough room there for your batteries. If there is though, you could definitely make nice custom battery boxes in there. It would at least keep the weight down low, and if you didn't limber it, but instead used a cheap dogging hatch lid over each battery comparment, it might work out nicely. Worth thinking about.

I'm not shure however , if I want 48V live current down low in the bilge....

Some of you might be sceptical regarding electric propulsion , but my mind is set. I'll use a 15hp PMAC brushless motor , and a 5hp diesel generator.
This gives me 220v domestic voltage, and 5hp continous propulsion(15hp with charged batteries). the generator will run on anything from diesel to coocking oil, even lard+methanol+ caustic soda will do if it has to.

Just as you know it , I'm no stranger to electric motors.
Here is my home made electric bike , Top speed 50mph range 100miles.


.manitu

Cool stuff! Deck Officer will be pleased...
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Old 18-06-2012, 15:04   #66
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The deck officers love the sound of electric motors. When I test-run one on the workbench , they run to the bike.

The lithium cells I'm using are the 16650 cells , same as laptop computers. I can build the batteries any size I want. Cabling to the battery managment system might be hard if the batteries are different sizes.

.manitu
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Old 19-06-2012, 06:10   #67
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Man this job takes its toll..
I'm getting close to 30 kilos of glass and polyester added to the bilge.

No pictures of the bilge today, but I have some pictures of the much discussed cockpit and boat length.



.manitu
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Old 20-06-2012, 02:35   #68
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

Hi , all of you. The floors are allmost finished , and it's time to start thinking about the outside. My plan is to clean the bare iron of the keel, prime it with vinylester, then use glass and polyester. I'll cover about 4-5 inches of the hull, to 4-5 inches below the holes in the keel. But first I'll need to fill the holes... I got lots of polyurethane foam left over from the floors. I wonder if I could , either chop up the poly and mix it with filler , or cut squares of the poly to fill the voids? My budget for this job is far gone , so I would prefer to get away with what I got, but most important is to never have to do this again...

.manitu
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Old 20-06-2012, 06:57   #69
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

I'd stretch the budget and do the keel very, very well, in epoxy. Time and money spent now will result in not having to come back to the keel later. You will find some fine keel/rust threads at CF.

On our ship the voids are filled with hard putty - probably epoxy+baloons.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 20-06-2012, 07:48   #70
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I was recomended a special vinylester primer for the keel by the town's most respected sailboat yard. I even got a liter of it for free when i bought mat from him. My mate's uncle know is a sailor and know them well. This primer is formulated for iron and is superior to epoxy on an iron keel, acording to the yard guy.

.manitu
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Old 20-06-2012, 07:59   #71
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitu View Post
Hi , all of you. The floors are allmost finished , and it's time to start thinking about the outside. My plan is to clean the bare iron of the keel, prime it with vinylester, then use glass and polyester. I'll cover about 4-5 inches of the hull, to 4-5 inches below the holes in the keel. But first I'll need to fill the holes... I got lots of polyurethane foam left over from the floors. I wonder if I could , either chop up the poly and mix it with filler , or cut squares of the poly to fill the voids? My budget for this job is far gone , so I would prefer to get away with what I got, but most important is to never have to do this again...

.manitu

I too would stick to epoxy for an iron keel, anything else will eventually delam. You could build a form and fill with pour foam for cheap, that would be the quickest cheapest answer, but that does not capture the bolts so you will have to remove the exterior glass and the foam if you ever need to re-torque the bolts. That's why I suggested Chockfast Orange, it is extremely strong and dense and will capture the nuts perfectly, and it's low exotherm so you can do it in one pour. Epoxy exotherms so hot that you can't pour more than 1/2" at a time, which means a bunch of pours to fill or if you use thickened epoxy a whole bunch of trowelling it in, which will leave voids. This would also take several gallons of epoxy to do at great expense, Chockfast would probably be cheaper and do a much better job. But pour foam is the quick and dirty answer, fast to set up and pour, sands super easy for prep, etc. etc.
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Old 20-06-2012, 08:02   #72
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

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Originally Posted by manitu View Post
I was recomended a special vinylester primer for the keel by the town's most respected sailboat yard. I even got a liter of it for free when i bought mat from him. My mate's uncle know is a sailor and know them well. This primer is formulated for iron and is superior to epoxy on an iron keel, acording to the yard guy.

.manitu

Is it Duratec? IMHO nothing is superior to epoxy on an iron keel, but maybe they have a magic formula I'm not familiar with. If you prime the iron with their vinylester primer and then do the layup in vinylester resin it might work out.
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Old 20-06-2012, 10:12   #73
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

Whatever you do, really make sure to put a steel brush to the wet epoxy or primer on the keel and forcefully try to rub the wet primer into the steel. You want the steel brush to scratch into the steel.

If you don't do this, it is gonna fall off, even with epoxy. I have had several of those highly recommended primers and have always been disappointed with them. West System or MAS epoxy, roll it on, brush it in with steel brush, wait for gelled/tacky state, roll on 2nd coat. I let that fully cure, then scrub it with plain, clean, running water and Scotchbrite pad, after which it is ready for most anti-foulings even without primer... but I sand it a bit anyway.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 20-06-2012, 10:15   #74
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

Cool, share the primer's name!

Maybe I can use something similar too. We (I) did the keel with Primocon twice ... f waste of our time and money. AVOID.

barnie
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Old 20-06-2012, 10:24   #75
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Re: Manitu's project: Finessa 33

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Whatever you do, really make sure to put a steel brush to the wet epoxy or primer on the keel and forcefully try to rub the wet primer into the steel. You want the steel brush to scratch into the steel.

If you don't do this, it is gonna fall off, even with epoxy. I have had several of those highly recommended primers and have always been disappointed with them. West System or MAS epoxy, roll it on, brush it in with steel brush, wait for gelled/tacky state, roll on 2nd coat. I let that fully cure, then scrub it with plain, clean, running water and Scotchbrite pad, after which it is ready for most anti-foulings even without primer... but I sand it a bit anyway.

cheers,
Nick.
@ Nick:

This over cast iron keel or lead? Or will it work with both metals?

And how many layer of epoxy do you recommend?

Any point going this way if I have no sandblaster here? (I can grind the keel with wire-brush / drill / angle-grinder, etc..

Sorry for this many questions but the same job here for me later this summer.

THX
barnakiel
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