Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-11-2013, 14:09   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
I'm sure the $100,000s of price difference between Oyster and production has something to do with it too.
No, you're wrong... We were looking at Tayanas, HC, Island Packet and others when we found the Oyster. Lot's of other manufacturers offer a skeg mounted rudder.
__________________

__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 15:18   #32
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,846
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
No, you're wrong... We were looking at Tayanas, HC, Island Packet and others when we found the Oyster. Lot's of other manufacturers offer a skeg mounted rudder.
and completely different sailing characteristics to the Oyster or Bene or Hanse. New vs new.... what is the cost difference?
__________________

__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 15:44   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

The new Oysters have a skinny little skeg that I wouldn't put much faith in. I heard of one having the skeg sheared off recently, but I don't know where I heard that.

The Oyster 885 is equipped with 2 spade rudders and it may be the forerunner to the rest of the line.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 17:14   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
The new Oysters have a skinny little skeg that I wouldn't put much faith in. I heard of one having the skeg sheared off recently, but I don't know where I heard that.

The Oyster 885 is equipped with 2 spade rudders and it may be the forerunner to the rest of the line.
Before you try to sound like you know what you're talking about, do a little first hand homework... Like go stand under an Oyster in the yard, you'll find the full length skeg to be more than good enough and solid. Besides, I haven't heard of a single rudder failure on an Oyster. Regarding the double rudder model... If one breaks, I believe that still leaves the one remaining rudder which can do the job. The same applies to other manufacturers offering two.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 18:25   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Quartering seas and unbalanced sails can put a lot of pressure on the helm, even in 20 kts and 6-8 ft seas. Many boats in those rallies set the autopilot and sit back for the ride. The helm can become unbalanced and the helmsman would never know it. One Caribbean 1500 that I participated in (2006, if I recall correctly) had three boats lose rudders and several autopilots burn out (in much heavier weather).

That's why I don't use the autopilot in situations like that. I like to be able to feel how the boat is doing and tweak the sails as necessary. Don't know if that was the issue in the Salty Dawg, but it may have been.
Hud,by God I think you have it! Yes ,with poorly trimmed sails and the boat in a seaway while the autopilot soldiers on holding course , there would be side to side flexing of the rudder shaft with each passing wave and of course the flexing would be greater than otherwise without the feedback that a human would sense and (hopefully ) correct by adjusting sail trim.
__________________
mrohr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 18:42   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Before you try to sound like you know what you're talking about, do a little first hand homework... Like go stand under an Oyster in the yard, you'll find the full length skeg to be more than good enough and solid. Besides, I haven't heard of a single rudder failure on an Oyster.
Seems like I touched a nerve. The 53 is not one of the newer generations of Oyster and I see in the new drawings that they either don't show the skeg/keel or they don't delineate where the skeg ends and the rudder starts. However the last time I checked the drawings did show these and the skeg was very long and very thin.

As to the double rudder, I agree. I read the report on Rob Humphrey's site about the tank and computer testing they did on the twin rudder design. They are able to make the individual rudders much smaller and they require less steerage angle to affect the same turn than either the skeg hung or single spade rudder.

I haven't been able to find the article on the skeg/rudder damage on the Oyster so I may be wrong on that point but I will keep on looking.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 18:44   #37
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Thats simple, spade rudders are linked to the boat by the rudder stock shaft, corrosion, impacts,or previously grounding or other kind of damage and the rudder is compromised, not necesary a previous Bang !! simple electrolisis or corrosion at the shaft and the rudder can be gone! glu glu...
My rudder is suported by a overkill bronze heel plate or shoe plate, in case of shaft snap or disabled im thinking in drill a hole at the bottom edge of the rudder , the rudder is very strong , filled inside with solid resin, no foam , and with a couple of long lines able to steer the boat with the cockpit winches and some blocks, simple.... in theory.....

I don't know how standard this setup is, but our boat has a pair of u-bolts through the top trailing edge of the rudder, to easily attach lines in the event of a steering system failure. Seemed pretty logical to me when I realised, after a moment, what I was looking at. This pair should probably be replaced as I have no idea of their age or condition.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder bits.jpg
Views:	157
Size:	120.3 KB
ID:	70466  
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2013, 19:16   #38
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
I don't know how standard this setup is, but our boat has a pair of u-bolts through the top trailing edge of the rudder, to easily attach lines in the event of a steering system failure. Seemed pretty logical to me when I realised, after a moment, what I was looking at. This pair should probably be replaced as I have no idea of their age or condition.

Exactly!! but it just work in skeg hung rudders, i see this similar thing in a couple of rudders to, wondering why...
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 01:04   #39
Registered User
 
WindLove's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wherever Sarah takes me but based in VA/Chesapeake
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
The new Oysters ...... I heard of one having the skeg sheared off recently, but I don't know where I heard that.
That's good enough for me. Now I have heard of one too. Not factcheck needed. Rinse and repeat.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there..
WindLove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 02:28   #40
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
SY Zambesi, Oyster 62: Zambesi was coming up the Savannah River when the current carried her onto the rock-hard sand shoal. The impact broke the skeg completely in two and jammed the rudder up into the hull.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 07:56   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
SY Zambesi, Oyster 62: Zambesi was coming up the Savannah River when the current carried her onto the rock-hard sand shoal. The impact broke the skeg completely in two and jammed the rudder up into the hull.
I believe this thread was originally started to discuss spontaneus rudder failure at sea; now it seems to have changed to groundings on "rock hard sand shoals" due to current along the Savannah River. Nice try, but I still maintain that I haven't heard of any spontaneus failures of Oysters in the same sea conditions as those being discussed, and I still feel that ANY sailboat with a full length skeg or fully protected rudder has a better chance of not suffering the same fate (a broken rudder) as those being discussed.

BTW: I did my own fact check, and can only find mention of the boat named "Zambesi" in a pdf document almost 10 years old. No mention of structural failure. If it did break any underwater portion of the boat due to a hard grounding caused by swift current or storm, again that's entirely different than what happened to the boats in the rally.

If you have to look so far and wide on the internet as to include Oysters and other boats which were washed ashore or grounded in order to find one with a broken rudder or skeg, I think my point has been proven, and I feel confident in my choice of a full skeg rudder.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 08:28   #42
Registered User
 
WindLove's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wherever Sarah takes me but based in VA/Chesapeake
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
BTW: I did my own fact check, and can only find mention of the boat named "Zambesi" in a pdf document almost 10 years old. No mention of structural failure. If it did break any underwater portion of the boat due to a hard gr.
Good work Keno.... People will twist facts to reach any conclusion. Comparing an Oyster breaking a rudder on a rock bed with a spontaneous breakage in moderate sea conditions is unhelpful. What is the agenda there?

Folks, if you own a compromised production boat and feel a need to justify why you have it, just be honest. You could afford it, and that's likely why you have it. Don't create some dummy science to try to prove these mishaps are just as likely to happen to a world-class sailboat. They are not all created equally.

I have a Bavaria..... It's not a Hinkley! Why? Because I can afford a Bavaria and I am a sailor.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there..
WindLove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 08:56   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Re the concern about "thin" skegs and less than full length skegs:

In a discussion about rudder loss (not loss of steering), it seems to me that either of those skeg designs will support the rudder in the event of rudder post failure... the event that causes the complete loss of spade rudders. The presence of a lower support bearing will prevent the rudder from falling away, and the use of steering lines (attached to fixtures like on GiLow's Swanson can get you home even with a sheared post.

Having a partial skeg design allows some balance area to be built into the rudder, and this can drastically reduce the helm forces required to turn the rudder. This is not to be sneered at! Some of the boats that I have sailed that had full length skegs and unbalanced rudder blades had very heavy helms in a blow. This increases the torque that the rudder post and web assemblies must exert, and increases the chance of failure somewhat.

Finally, there is no reason that a "thin" skeg can't be structurally sound, nor any reason to assume that one of more generous proportions is indeed strong. It all depends upon how the root of the skeg is anchored into the hull structure... and many are not so impressive when you look closely!

A little thought about the engineering goes a long way to dispel the knee-jerk conservative opinions about such designs.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 09:19   #44
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

in the end isn't all this just another one of the "fear" items to spend a lot of worrying over, but really is a minor odds issue

do rudders sometimes fall off - yes
are they falling off left and right - only on forums

of course the rudder topic falling off gives the skeg owners something to be superior about, just like a leak on a fin keel give the full keel people the same
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2013, 09:33   #45
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Lost Another Rudder!

Fact: A skeg hold the rudder in place in case of rudder shaft broken,
Fact: the loads in a skeg hung rudder are more evenly spaced.
Fact. In survival conditions or in a hove to position if the boat fell off backwards from a wave the spade rudder is more vulnerable than a skeg rudder.
Fact. Bearings and bushings last longer in a skeg hung rudder.
Fact. A spade rudder is the more efective design this days.
and Fact in the case of a shaft rudder sear scenario you have far more chances to rig a way to steer the boat than with a spade, 99% spade rudders end floating around or sunking....
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lost, rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help needed with Beneteau First 375 Rudder PremierCru Construction, Maintenance & Refit 9 17-07-2013 08:09
Bent Rudder Post Advise bstowers Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 17-11-2012 20:37
Rudder problem Rakuflames Construction, Maintenance & Refit 29 17-11-2012 08:12
For Sale: WINDVANE INDEPENDENT SELF RUDDER - BARGAIN $150 Chardy Classifieds Archive 1 04-05-2012 20:33
Crevice Corrosion - Is My Rudder Toast ? funjohnson Construction, Maintenance & Refit 41 14-11-2011 22:14



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.