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Old 27-12-2015, 14:29   #46
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post

More, a colossal drag to have to motor the whole way.
...my concern about such a demanding journey for the outboard.

Ann
But Ann, he is in a 25 foot boat.
What part of Cape Hatteras do you suggest he sail around?
(That was a bit facicious ) but the observation I make is that most boats that size do the ICW along the USA coast.

Certainly if he wants to do day sails here and there, fine, but is anyone expecting him to do a 200 mile offshore passage?
I don't think so. He's in a 25 foot boat with a canal in front of him.

It sounded to me like he wants to get the boat 'home' to fix it up. Therefore this trip is similar to a delivery.

But if he wants to double the capes, Key West and zip non-stop up the Gulf of Mexico then my advice changes.
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Old 27-12-2015, 15:04   #47
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Re: Loose Shrouds

I think it would be beneficial to be able to sail from Sandy Hook N J to Norfolk Virginia then get in the ICW canal that would cut off a lot of double back losing time and extra distance. I like UNCIV's suggestion for a temp fix but did ask if the same solution could be done with ply rather than aluminum. It is temp for only this trip. I am still looking for a boat mate to help out but so far no takers just talkers.
Thank you all for the input. James
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Old 27-12-2015, 15:19   #48
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Re: Loose Shrouds

But that's a temp fix for a problem u don't know exists.

But Sandy Hook to Norfolk is not too bad at all, but that next 50 miles outside around Hatteras is the tricky one. Bad bit of water that.

So there's the "line" imho. U can go close to the coast to Norfolk with no real problem, sailing in the right conditions. You are well inside the Gulf Stream with lots of alternate ports if needed if the weather changes.

Then there are some short offshore hops you can do in fine weather too, but all inside the Gulf Stream.

Its just good to nurse the boat when you don't know definitively what the problem is, or if you have a problem at all.
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Old 27-12-2015, 15:26   #49
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Re: Loose Shrouds

No I would go into the "canal" at Norfolk. I also know a couple of yards there about so I may check them out.
thanks James
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Old 27-12-2015, 22:29   #50
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Re: Loose Shrouds

In terms of using plywood in lieu of aluminium, I think that it could probably work. Perhaps even better. I'd suggested aluminum due to it's stiffness vs. weight ratio, & from being used to working on big boats.
So, back to the plywood; If there's not too much camber in the deck, then I'd suggest 2 layers of 1/2" MDO (Medium Density Overlay). The stuff which sign makers use, which comes in the same sizes as plywood. As it's a bit stiffer than (more layers/inch) & more dimensionally stable, with better water resistance than regular plywood has.

Either that, or say, 3 layers of 3/8" ACX (although 2 would probably be enough, in truth). And which ever you choose, it'd be wise to have the bottom piece be larger than the top one, so that there's not such an abrupt stress riser at any edges (& round the corners a bit). Plus you could even bevel the edges of each sheet if you like, too. If for no other reason than to avoiding creating a trip hazard/toe stubber.

Also, if you want the full on monocoque effect (with the plywood), you could glue the layers together (not to the cabin top). With epoxy, or anything waterproof. But only using Resourcinal if you figure to Really clamp them up good while it cures. Via a batch of stainless steel deck screws, or sacks of concrete laid atop things, etc.

Plus, if you're concerned about tying the plywood & the deck together, there are plenty of options (LMK re; ideas). But few that wont involve a refinishing of the cabintop later on.
But then, the objective, I think, is to have a stable structure on which to mount the spar. So that the trip's not 2,000nm done at 3kts SOG solely via an outboard. Thus having a solid rig would be a wise plan IMO. Not to mention that it'd make the trip a Lot more pleasant.

On the rigging, if you really want to do it on the cheap, & as a temporary deal. You could get some galvanized wire, & nicopress fittings, from a commercial, non-marine, company. And make up some temporary stays that way (paint them if you want to aid in fending off rust). Just don't let the mainsail touch such shrouds downwind, or the galvanizing will cut it to ribbons in the time it takes to down a beer or two. Literally.

Other options besides (doubled up) nicopresses are; poured sockets/epoxy sockets, saddle/U-clamps, splicing (though few can do 1x19 anymore), siezing (around thimbles), plus a half a dozen others which escape me at the moment, & take a bit o practice & experience anyway.
You could use other styles of wire besides 1x19 too. Because as long as the wire strength is about the same, something like 7x7, or 7x19 will just stretch a bit more is all.

If you want to read up on some of the alternative rigging fittings, configurations, & wire types. In addition to some damn good, common sense sailing & outfitting thoughts, & just plain good writing, pick up Ross Norgrove's books.
It's been ages since I read his stuff, but it's some of the best advice on many cruising & sailing subjects, out there. Rigging included (that & other fixes, on a budget, or with low tech gear).
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Old 28-12-2015, 10:27   #51
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Re: Loose Shrouds

"Firstly, I'm assuming that you're suggesting that he use WD-40 or PB Blaster on his shroud wire as a corrosion preventative. Yes? However, there are far superior products available to use for such purposes in the marine environment. Such as Boseshield T9 for example.

As from what I know of PB Blaster, it's designed to be a penetrating oil, used to free stuck fasteners. And as such, it isn't, by design, primarily a corrosion inhibitor. So why are you recommending it in this instance?

On WD-40, I can't say that I've used it in several decades; given that it's touted to be "good for everything". But one cannot in truth say, specifiically, what it's really good for. And in practice, there are plenty of other, job specific products, which perform far better at each task which WD-40 is "supposed to" be for.

Also, & this is KEY:
Why would you have him coat his rigging wire with a lubricant, prior to installing mechanical end terminals onto said wire? Terminals which rely on friction, to a reasonable degree, in order to maintain their grip the wire?
As common sense would say that the two things are at odds with one another.

Especially as, typically when I install such fittings, I'm pretty anal about making sure that the wire ends, & all of the other components, are clean, & free of contaminants. To the point of making sure to always clean & degrease everything with Acetone, prior to beginning the installation of such fittings." Uncivilized


Uncivilized,
I think some, including yourself, are not getting the drift of what the OP wants and that is simply an inexpensive way to get his boat from point A to B. This does not include re-rigging, time-consuming/costly structural modifications or anything else that is "expensive." Therefore, I, and others, have responded with cost efficient ways to accomplish his goal. So, whether one uses WD40, PB Blaster of Boeshield, the principle is to lubricate the wire and loosen/dissolve any visual or unseen rust/corrosion for under $10. a can. I also use a toothbrush to scrub the wire strands to remove any remaining corrosion before wiping with a clean lint free rag. This is far less costly than replacing the wire and terminal connections if there are no glaring or apparent problems. As far as any concerns with adhesion of a Norsemen or Stalok fitting where the wire has been treated with the above method, it is not relevant since these are compression fittings that cannot slip since the wire strands are held in place(wrapped) around a small plug that goes inside the casting and then tightened. I have installed these on old wire and new for over 20 years with no issues whether as an emergency measure or a fix with 100% results. And, even if they were saturated with a penetrating oil, the end result/physics would be the same. I hope this explains my recommendations. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:02   #52
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Another reason for chronic loose rigging besides the compression post issues is the chain plates working loose. Often on boats this size the plates are bolted to a plywood bulkhead, water eventually leaks down the plates and rots the ply core allowing the bolts to pull up through the wood. So the owner tightens the rig, goes sailing, rig goes slack, tightens again, eventually turnbuckles bottom out and you have what the OP has. Seen it more than once.

A temp fix is easy enough and cheap, epoxy the bolt holes, fit a backing plate of wood from any lumber yard, oak is good, redrill and rebolt.

There is a lot of good sailing, if for nothing else to save gas, in the 1500mi from point A to B, even in parts of the ICW. It would be a shame if the OP missed out on that because an easy, inexpensive but safe fix was not done.

Dropping, err lowering, a deck stepped mast on a 25' boat should not be a big deal, a couple of guys and a pair of shearlegs out of 2x4 is one way. If the yard insists on using their big crane and several 'helpers' at $100 each find another yard. A previous post said the rig could be replaced for $600 in parts, I agree and recommend riggingonly.com as a source. But I don't think the OP needs a new rig, at least not yet, he needs to find the underlying cause of the rig going that slack and fix it one way or the other.

Good luck and happy sailing.
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Old 28-12-2015, 13:47   #53
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Just a note,

If the OP decides to re-rig using 7 x 7, it goes around thimbles much better than 1 x 19.

He will be able to assess the possible source[s] of the looseness, and proceed from there. Lots of food for thought here.

Good luck with it, jmczzz.

Ann
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Old 29-12-2015, 08:33   #54
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Re: Loose Shrouds

I want to let all posters know how much I appreciate all the input. I have learned more about standing rigging in the shortest time from this thread than I thought possible. Just having the names of the components, author of a book and concepts discussed has been great. Now I have research starting points to follow up. I am humbled by the generosity and willingness to help me expressed here... You guys and Lady are great.
Thank you, James aka jmczzz
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Old 29-12-2015, 14:29   #55
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Re: Loose Shrouds

I'm told that Sta-Lok, and Norseman terminals only work with 7 x 19 wire. That seems to cut out the suggestions to use Sta-Lok, or Norseman fittings with 7 x 7 wire. The cost of labor for swagging terminals depends on wire size but one shop quotes $12. per terminal for one size and $16. per for a couple of sizes up. that with the cost of the wire raises the rig refit coast significantly. It appears to most economical approach is to use 7 x 19 wire and either Sta-Lok, and Norseman terminals. However I have read some info that suggest a non professional may have difficulty and wast because of errors.
A new quandary for me with zero experience rigging. That leaves me with motoring or paying a pro rigger. Or jury rigging what ever way I can and limping her home.
So I am wondering what a pro re-rigging job would cost approximately for my 25' boat in the Northeast US
Any experience based info would be appreciated. James
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Old 31-12-2015, 19:58   #56
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Hi, James,

I was only a gopher and watcher when Jim put the StaLoks on our first Insatiable. There were instructions that came with the StaLoks and cones. He followed those, this being before Youtube. It was a matter of pliers, screwdriver, the rtv for the glue, and he used a vise mounted on a piece of plywood. You dry assemble it first, then do the final bit. Yes, 1x19 is correct for StaLoks.

The 7x7 will lay around thimbles better, and if you were using bulldog clamps one can make up shrouds that way. Not seaman-like, but knew a guy with a small tri who did that. To me, the mechanical swage of the StaLoks is more confidence giving. [FWIW, Jim and I sailed on the order of 70-80,000 sea miles with those Sta-Loks, and the forestay we broke and replaced in Vanuatu also had them (of course). I trust them.] Possibly, UNCIVILIZED will come along and explain in detail why they are better than bulldog clamps or NicoPress fittings.

You mentioned paying a rigger. Maybe he'd lead you through making up one of the stays, and you could do the rest. You'd be paying him for his instruction, and that's cool.

By the way, the StaLok cones have to be matched to the formers, and the design changed at least once that I know of. The old formers do not work with the new cones, so don't go looking for some on ebay or something unless you can find out about that part of the deal. If you deal with a reputable supplier, they'll sell you the right stuff.

Ann
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Old 31-12-2015, 21:38   #57
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Re: Loose Shrouds


Firstly, as I suggested before, pick up copies of these books:
The Complete Rigger's Apprentice: Tools and Techniques for Modern and Traditional Rigging: Brion Toss: 9780070648401: Amazon.com: Books

http://www.amazon.com/Cruising-rigs-...=ross+norgrove

They’re inexpensive, & will answer 500% of the questions which you have. Or close to it. And also, if you’ve a mind to, their other works (that I’ve read anyway) are good too.
But these 2 books should go a Looong way to educating you about rigging. To the degree that once you’re finished lazily reading through them, you’ll know more about rigging than 95%+ of the sailors out there. Quite literally. And they’re not overly technical, nor hard to understand. But are very explanatory.

Regarding installing Staloks. The first one which I did was on the headstay of my 1st boat, a 33’er. And it was going to be on a stay, inside of a furler, so there wouldn’t be much opportunity to keep an eye on my work.
Like Ann & Jim, this was back in the pre-internet days (1992). And I had naught but the instructions, & a (sailing) worldly neighbor as a dock mate. Kind of watching me like a big brother would. That, & he helped me to both raise & lower my headstay/furler, when I was working at the masthead.

The Stalok was only slightly intimidating. And it took more time to pull out my tools, than it did to install the thing.
But given that you’re a touch spooked by them. Why not buy some rigging wire, in the various types which you’re contemplating using on the boat. In addition to a Stalok, with a few spare parts. Plus, perhaps a couple of thimbles & Nicopresses, & then try out everything at home. That way, you can get comfortable with doing most of this stuff, in your own workshop or garage.
Plus, even with the cost of; the books, the wire & fittings, plus a Nicopress tool, you still wont have spent $100. And will have given yourself quite an education. That, & the Stalok(s) are reusable... just buy one that'll work on your boat. Like to make up a spare headstay, for example.

As to the question posed by Ann, about Mechanical Terminals (like Staloks) being superior to bulldog clamps, or Nicopresses. In the real world, they’re only slightly superior, in practice. And the reason is, is that they form a mechanical lock on the end of the wire. Such that, the harder the wire is pulled on, the tighter these kinds of fittings grip the wire.
Where as Nicopresses & bulldog clamps rely on friction alone (mostly) in order to hold the wire in place. Though, when properly done, there’s some swaging which takes place when you use Nicopresses. And plenty of folks have sailed for many tens of thousands of miles, with any & all of these fittings. Sans problems.

And part of me repeatedly stressing the above books, is that there’s a lot of really good explanatory information on said fittings, & on many other questions which I’m sure that you have.
Plus, Brion's a professional, at the top of his field. So if he writes bad stuff, & rigs fall down because of it, he loses mucho business. Ergo, his info's good, (plus) reassuring.

That said, if you’re still bewildered, after reading the books, & doing some DIY rigging in your garage, PM me, & we can talk you through whatever has you stuck... Live.
But… odds are that there are plenty of riggers (sailing & commercial) near you, who’ll happily school you on some of this stuff. All for the price of a 12-pack, or case of beer. And FTF instruction is the best kind.
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Old 31-12-2015, 22:30   #58
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Re: Loose Shrouds

PS: To get some general ideas on what having your rigging professionally done would cost, it's easy enough to look up what an outfit charges per fitting, via their website.

And if you correspond with a few; both live AND via email or fax, then they can work up a full quote for you. To make a full set of new shrouds that is. However, when it comes time to actually make them, they'll need exact numbers for the length of each shroud. Which, until you get the mast stepped, & measure things, you cannot give them.

This is some of the why behind the suggestions to use, reusable, mechanical terminals. Particularly as, once you get the cabin structure fixed & stabilized. And have also ascertained why the current shrouds are "too long", & fixed that problem as well. Then much of the rigging wire & hardware can (probably) be re-used to make your final set of shrouds & stays.
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Old 01-01-2016, 01:12   #59
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Thank you Ms Ann and Unciv. Your encouragement and generous flow of information has been invaluable. Regardless of the outcome I appreciate what you have provided.
James
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:45   #60
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Re: Loose Shrouds

After much study, reading, and following lots of old and new threads. I have decided to dump the unknown good old boat and refit my tried and true Catalina 22 swing keel.The two major systems that have shown signs of having deeper problems than I want to tackle again are the unexplained loose shrouds and several unguarded statements from the prior owner.
He has "had the boat over 2 years, never had it out of the water" (Long Island Sound). He has "dived 6 times to clean the bottom," he has "noticed cracks on the keel where rust is bleeding thru." The boats keel is encapsulated cast iron. He closed the four (4) thru hull gate valves when he first got the boat and they have never been reopened. When He got the boat "the mast was down tied across the fore and aft rails".
I really want a little bigger boat but don't want to have to rebuild one to get there, I just dropped and redid the keel on my 22 last year.
So I advertised and sold it as suggested in the thread as "a live aboard boat, not in sail-away condition". I lost a couple of hundred, but did not lose what is left of my sanity. At 73 I want to sail a boat not have a project. I decided to save the money keep a sharp eye out for a good boat at the right price. Meanwhile, spiffy up the C22 and enjoy sailing in the spring. I will go down the Tenn-Tom and start the Great loop with what I've got and be grateful for that.
I must add hear my sincere thanks for all the great input and discussion I got on this thread.
You ladies and gentlemen have given me more that I ever expected and more boat savy-ness than I could have imagined.
Thank you all, James
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