Looking for Advice on Repower

[Rocketman]

Thanks Dockhead again for your excelent advice on the 108, I did not consider the points that you make.

[S/V Antares]

Tia Bu, Good points, however every situation is different. Throwing 4 or 5 grand into an older nearly extinct engine will not always improve the value or dependability of your boat. I only wish the wind would be dependable when needed... I have rarley found it so. .

[Rocketman]

Thanks to a couple of very generous forum members I now have a PDF files for the M50 and the Volvo verson of my engine. I thank you very much, this has been a great Christmas present to me. Thanks again.

[CarinaPDX]

I agree that the first thing is to assess the state of the current engine - the M50 is not that old of a design. The engine hours only tell part of the story - diesels can go a lot longer than 7000 hours if maintained well, and run regularly. Because the Perkins engines are commonly used for many (non-marine) applications there should be no problem getting a basic overhaul done well and at a good price (not necessarily by a marine Perkins dealer). It is the marinizing components that are expensive. There are very good aftermarket heat exchanger cores available for most engines, and at a lower price than original.

The 4-108 is an antique - don't even think about going through the effort of changing engines to end up with one. The total costs of a new engine can be double the engine cost itself so it is a false economy to go that way. BTW it seems that $10k is about the price for marine engines over quite a range of outputs, so price shouldn't affect the choice much.

If you do need a new engine, I would ask first if you are going to cruise in distant places. I had a Sabb engine, and after the west coast dealer closed I got great service from the factory. That wasn't the problem. The problem was importing parts into foreign countries: in some places you will have to hire an agent to clear the goods in. So while I liked the Beta designs a lot (the marinizing is well thought out and implemented) I felt that either a Yanmar or Volvo were a better choice for parts availability in distant places. Most major marine centers have dealers for both.

There isn't a huge amount of difference between the Volvo and Yanmar (38hp). Both sell engines that meet EPA specs that start in 2014 - they run clean and efficiently. I bought a 38 hp Volvo; the Yanmar was a little heavier, a little more powerful, and had a 3" exhaust (which would have been a headache for me to install). The Volvo uses a Perkins block, while Yanmar uses their own blocks (which they sell for many non-marine apps as well). The Beta came with a more basic instrument panel but could be upgraded to N2K, so be sure to compare like to like as much as possible. It really is hard to go wrong with any of these engines. I checked the parts prices of Yanmar and Volvo before I bought, and didn't see a lot of differences (unlike in the past). It seems Yanmar has raised their prices to match. Unfortunately it can be hard to find 3rd party parts for both engines - last year I couldn't even get a cross ref on an oil filter for the Volvo. Worse, Perkins only sells that block to OEMs so they don't retail the parts themselves.

I hope this helps.

Greg

[nhschneider]

You may have all the advice you want on repowering (and then some) but I went through the same thing a couple of years ago so I thought I'd chime in.

The Volvo MD40A that was original equipment on our boat had almost 8,000 hours on it and we had some extensive cruising planned. The engine used no oil between changes but had developed some issues that made me uncomfortable enough that I was reluctant to cast off the dock lines for remote parts of the world. I know that the engine probably would have done ok but I was willing to invest in my peace of mind that the chances of a major failure were unlikely. Granted, I'm fortunate to be in the position where I can make the call - I know many people who own boats don't have the choice of whether to repair or repower. I chose to repower with a Beta Marine 90 and a Gori 3-blade folding prop. Not only do I have no regrets, I'm absolutely delighted. In calm conditions with the engine running at 1,400 RPM the boat moves at 6 knots and we burn three-quarters of a gallon per hour. Our Beta now has almost 1,200 hours on it and has needed no repairs. I change the oil and filter every 500 hours. I know the 90 (which is too big for your boat) is no longer available which too bad as I think it's the only Kubota non-turbocharged engine that uses CDI - Center Direct Injection - which eliminated the need for glow plugs.

Good luck on your decision.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[redhead78]

I repowered with a 35H beta 2 years ago, great engine. The thing that sold me was the support I recieved from them, I researched yanmar and volvo, and felt like an orphan when I was dealing with them. Bought mine Sound Marine Diesel Connecticut, owner Joe De Mars was very helpful. I don't care where u are in the world we live in if u have the proper documentation, for your Schwinn bike u will be able to get parts to whereever u are....Red

[sabray]

cummins 4b 3.3 from trans atlantic diesel.

[Brazil]

I have been looking into the cumins too. Appears to be a great choice . A shame it is a litle to small for my boat

[jacob30]

The main distributor for perkins parts is right there in Jacksonville Florida. Have you contacted them for any hard to get parts? I have a M50 also. I really like it thus far. Seems very reliable so far. I would look at an overhaul of your current engine before a repower.

[Rocketman]

Thanks for all the advice so far, has anyone out there rebuilt this engine or does anyone know a good diesel mechanic in Florida that would do it for a reasonable price?

[Pete the Cat]

As someone who repowered I support the others who have suggested you look very hard at investing in the engine you have--excellent advice on where to look in these comments and what to fix. My repower (did all the work myself) cost half again the amount of the cost of the engine when you figure needing a new shaft (for lengths) rebuilding the bed, replacing all the hoses and the other things you will discover when things are out. It is a huge job. If the engine starts readily without a lot of preheat, it is probably OK. My brand new Yanmar does a bit of blue smoke at start up--my dealer says it is fuel, but I am not sure. I would guess that a lot of engines are replaced for emotional (owner) and pecuniary (mechanics) reasons over actually needing replacement. I know, I did it.

[Rocketman]

Yes, I would agree, with pet the cat, since I got back from my last trip, I have calmed down from replacing the god %^$# thing. When ever I leave to go on a 2-3 week trip, usally somewhere in the Keys, I think everything is running tip top, this last trip I took off with 6 people on board and the engine started over heating for the first time since I have owned the boat. We had great wind so we sailed away, when I investigated the over heating problem it appeared that the water pump was leaking so I ordered one and had it shiped to Key West. I have the tools on board to replace it. While tearing it down to replace the water pump I checked everything else. I found that the heat exchanger was bad. I also noticed that I had a very small leak of diesel fuel comming from the injector pump. I also noticed that there were a lot of little things that were not failing but things that could fail around the corner if left unattended. Like rusty injection lines, old rubber hoses, rusty hose clamps and the like. Then further into the trip after replacing the water pump, and timming belt, the engine would not start with out primming the engine. Air was getting into the fuel system and I assumed it was comming from the small leak in the injector pump, but it was actually comming from a fuel line that I had not tightened completely while replacing water pump. Needless to say, while on a 3 week trip with 6 people on board and having what seemed like endless problems with the engine I was ready to throw the engine into the water and use my dingy motor to get me into the slip. But now after evaluation I realize that buying a new motor is no simple answer and like many have said, my engine may not be that bad. Appart from the resent problems the engine has ran great. I have never had problems with it before apart from burning a little oil, which a top end rebuild would probably correct, and be much easier than repowering. Thanks to all who have responded, I have read all responces and considered all thoughts on this subject. If anyone has thoughts as to how they would rebuild the top end I would love to hear those thoughts as well.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rocketman

Yes, I would agree, with pet the cat, since I got back from my last trip, I have calmed down from replacing the god %^$# thing. When ever I leave to go on a 2-3 week trip, usally somewhere in the Keys, I think everything is running tip top, this last trip I took off with 6 people on board and the engine started over heating for the first time since I have owned the boat. We had great wind so we sailed away, when I investigated the over heating problem it appeared that the water pump was leaking so I ordered one and had it shiped to Key West. I have the tools on board to replace it. While tearing it down to replace the water pump I checked everything else. I found that the heat exchanger was bad. I also noticed that I had a very small leak of diesel fuel comming from the injector pump. I also noticed that there were a lot of little things that were not failing but things that could fail around the corner if left unattended. Like rusty injection lines, old rubber hoses, rusty hose clamps and the like. Then further into the trip after replacing the water pump, and timming belt, the engine would not start with out primming the engine. Air was getting into the fuel system and I assumed it was comming from the small leak in the injector pump, but it was actually comming from a fuel line that I had not tightened completely while replacing water pump. Needless to say, while on a 3 week trip with 6 people on board and having what seemed like endless problems with the engine I was ready to throw the engine into the water and use my dingy motor to get me into the slip. But now after evaluation I realize that buying a new motor is no simple answer and like many have said, my engine may not be that bad. Appart from the resent problems the engine has ran great. I have never had problems with it before apart from burning a little oil, which a top end rebuild would probably correct, and be much easier than repowering. Thanks to all who have responded, I have read all responces and considered all thoughts on this subject. If anyone has thoughts as to how they would rebuild the top end I would love to hear those thoughts as well.

Evaluate the engine with a compression test and perhaps oil analysis with the caveat that oil analysis is best done after a baseline for the engine. That is looking for trends over time. These two tests will evaluate the basic core engine. If the core engine is solid then the high cost of overhaul can be deferred.

In regards to engine systems I am a boots to caps kind of guy. You can wait for each component to fail one by one but that is frustrating. I prefer to go through each system frombeginning to end and replace everything. Hoses, impellers, belts and even heat exchanger core if warranted. After that the raw dumps into exhaust so consider changing the exhaust components. A similar exercise can be done with the fuel components including the injector pump overhaul or at least bench test.

A full run through all systems components can run $1500 bucks or more but you have peace of mind that the systems won't let you down.

[Rocketman]

I thought I would write a reply to what exactly I have done since everyone was so kind to offer advise.
1. I replaced the heat exchanger from orcamarrine, they made me one that lookes better than the original for half the cost.
2. The injection pump that was leaking was removed and rebuilt at a local shop, for half the cost of quotes I was getting over the phone, cost about 800 bucks.
3. While the injection pump was being rebuilt I removed the injectors, and had them tested, they were all bad. I had them rebuilt also, cost 125 each,
4. I replaced all hoses, hose clamps, cleaned the engine, and repainted it.
5. Replaced the timming belt, and engine water pump.

Since everything is back together, all is well. I still have a high time engine, but the excesive smoking I had before is all but gone, most likely caused by having leaking injectors, No more leaking from injection pump. I am hopeful now that I can get at least a couple of more years out of this engine, and in the mean time I will keep my eyes open for another engine in good condition with low hours or one that has been rebuilt. I did all of the work myself, with the help of the engine shop manual, which someone on this site emailed me from copying it into PDF format, Thanks Campdavid.

[Geoduck]

Here's a story about high dollar engine parts that might be of interest to everyone:
About 20 years ago I had a 60hp Isuzu engine running an air compressor and water pump on my dive boat. The starter went out. It cost me $3-400 bucks for a new one - maybe more I cant recall - but it was $$$$$$! After it burned out, I decided to try rebuilding it - no one had the parts other than Isuzu.
I new a guy who worked for an auto electric rebuild center. We took the old starter, went in the back room and started pulling starters off the shelf - we found that the starter off an old Chevy 235 6cly engine matched exactly!
So, good by Isuzu - hello chevrolet! The rebuilt chevy starter cost me $35.00!
No more headaches in the starter department.
I have found this to be the case with other foreign parts as well over the years. It seems the Japs just copied what we had already engineered in some areas. I heard that the 4cyl Isuzu diesel was the same block as the chevy 4cyl gas engine that was in the early Nova! Maybe???