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Old 19-11-2012, 21:20   #1
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Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

During my search for my next boat, I have come across a couple that are Lloyd's Certified.

I have seen some ads saying that a boat is "built to Lloyd's standards," which I assume is weasel language meaning that Lloyd's has nothing to do with the boat.

I know that Lloyds of London has for centuries been the major shipping insurer, and that they are still a major re-insurer. I assume that they are the source of the Lloyd's Certification.

I have also come across reference to building standard called "German Lloyd's." How are they related?

What do Lloyd's Standards signify in the modern world of private sailing vessels?

Does their oversight or whatever make a boat more valuable?

For those who have boats built to the standard, what does having that certification mean to you?

Many thanks.

Bill.
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Old 19-11-2012, 21:54   #2
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

I don't know anything about the German Lloyd's, but my '69 Westerly Nomad is British built, and Lloyd's certified.

From what I found, back in the days before computer analysis of structural integrity, they would make a prototype and drop it from several feet in the air onto a concrete surface. If it didn't break, it passed Lloyd's standards. If it did break, they'd build another one and drop test it again.

That's why I like mine. It is over-built, like the proverbial brick sh-t house, and I completely trust it.
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Old 19-11-2012, 22:35   #3
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Lloyd's Register provides quality assurance and certification for ships. Lloyd's Rules govern a number of topics including materials used for construction of the vessel, structural requirements and minimum scantlings (i.e. frame spacings).

So a boat could be designed and built to comply with Lloyds rules (which seems like a sensible idea), but not be Lloyds Certified.

If I decided to design and build a boat for myself, I would build it to Lloyds rules, but I wouldn't go to the enormous additional expense of getting a Lloyds certified auditor / surveyor to oversee the process and certify compliance. If I were building a thousand boats to sell I probably would get them certified.
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Old 19-11-2012, 22:51   #4
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Thank you both for the insight regarding Lloyd's. What's the story with German Lloyd's, ABS or any other standards out there?
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Old 19-11-2012, 23:36   #5
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Lloyds, USCG, ABS,USL,DNV etc etc are all societies that have formed standards of ship construction that must be adhered to so the vessel can operate in a commercial way.

In Australia we have the USL as a guide to design and construction for commercial vessels.
Most over the years have copied or incorporated each others standards, bringing these standards into play for the average cruising boat tends to over-build the boat somewhat hence the old adage an elephant is a mouse built to a government standard....

But as far as it concerns you in a purchase, if the boat has a current certificate showing it was built and has been maintained to a society's standard then usually it will be ok to use as a commercial vessel and or you will have a boat that is very well built etc.

It's certainly not a negative you will find the boat is more insurable as the insurer is confident of the constructed integrity...

Cheers Frank
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Old 20-11-2012, 00:18   #6
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

GL-Tools - GL

Germanischer Lloyd
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Old 20-11-2012, 02:50   #7
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Acually what does a Lloyds or German Lloyds surveyor do ? I want a smallish 8m used boat registered in UK Part 1 (dont ask me why and yes there is the SSR) and for that the boat needs a survey.

The survey will cost me about 700 pounds ?!
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Old 20-11-2012, 03:18   #8
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Acually what does a Lloyds or German Lloyds surveyor do ? I want a smallish 8m used boat registered in UK Part 1 (dont ask me why and yes there is the SSR) and for that the boat needs a survey.

The survey will cost me about 700 pounds ?!
They will go through the boats drawings and ensure it has been built to those APPROVED and stamped drawings.

Then they will go through the boat to see if it has failings ie rot, fastenings, welds whatever suits the boats construction.
They will issue you a defect list/condition report.

Cheers
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Old 20-11-2012, 04:07   #9
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsail374 View Post

(...) For those who have boats built to the standard, what does having that certification mean to you?

(...)
Nothing.

b.
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Old 20-11-2012, 04:31   #10
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Insurability is easier.

Ability to charter.

Construction solid.
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Old 20-11-2012, 04:52   #11
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

[QUOTE=Lagoon4us;1088751]Lloyds, USCG, ABS,USL,DNV etc etc are all societies that have formed standards of ship construction that must be adhered to so the vessel can operate in a commercial way."

Actually there is a bit of a misunderstanding between Classification Societies and Flag states.
The Classification Societies are commercial enterprises (Lloyds, ABS, DNV, BV, GL, RINA) while the Flags are Government agencies(USCG, Cayman Islands, Marshall Islands, MCA, etc, etc).

Classification Societies are responsible for setting standards for construction and a vessel "built to class" is one in which the drawings, construction, scantlings, machinery, stability and load line, etc have been reviewed and a Class surveyor has attended during the construction. "Designed to class" means that the original drawings were approved however no surveyor attended during construction so the vessel may or may not have actually been built to class.
A vessel "In class" means that the owner has made the effort (and borne the expense) to have annual surveys by the class surveyor, made all modifications or repairs to class standards (and had them surveyed by class), had a major survey every 5 years, etc. A very expensive undertaking but required by most Flags to maintain Commercial Registration.

The Flag does not govern construction but rather manning and operation including requirements for safety equipment (fire fighting systems, some construction details generally safety related, life jackets, rafts, etc.), hours of work and rest, etc. While there is some overlap in responsibility and Flag often contracts with Class to allow class surveyors to conduct Flag surveys, they are in fact completely separate entities.

In short, buying a vessel "built to Lloyds" doesn't mean much after the first few years unless the owner has kept her "in class" which would be extremely rare for a small yacht. She was built well but that is no indication of current condition.
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Old 20-11-2012, 04:56   #12
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Correct however I don't believe i mentioned under specific flag, as any country may accept the society chosen.
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Old 20-11-2012, 05:14   #13
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

My boat (and the class) was built to Lloyds 100a1 standard (in 60's & 70's).

However AFAIK mine was not built under Lloyds supervision. I certainly don't have the paperwork to evidence it (it was an additional option - I have the price list / order form from 1970!).

What that means is that the boat was designed to meet the specs (in design and build), and probably did - but no one from Lloyds was actually checking. My suspicion is that most folks would not have paid the extra........

"Back in the day" Lloyds classification (of at least the class) was a popular way of asserting quality - however that seems to have faded away over recent decades.


This is a good summary:-

Lloyds Classification

Of course not to say that all the requirements for the Lloyds classification were in fact the best or have all stood the test of time..........Off hand the only Lloyds requirement I can remember is that the boat had to have 2 anchors on deck ready to deploy (and strapped down in chocks) - of course my boat model predates the advent of the bow roller (which arguably is a better solution than simply 2 anchors on deck).....in any event I removed one set of anchor chocks (I figured more foredeck working room was "better").

Personally I would be happier with a Lloyds certification (actual boat and / or only class), but nowhere near an actual requirement when choosing a boat.
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Old 25-11-2012, 10:58   #14
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker
Acually what does a Lloyds or German Lloyds surveyor do ? I want a smallish 8m used boat registered in UK Part 1 (dont ask me why and yes there is the SSR) and for that the boat needs a survey


Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
They will go through the boats drawings and ensure it has been built to those APPROVED and stamped drawings.

Then they will go through the boat to see if it has failings ie rot, fastenings, welds whatever suits the boats construction.
They will issue you a defect list/condition report.

Cheers
I think there is some confusion here. For Part I registration of a non-commercial vessel you only need a "tonnage survey", which is based on just measurements (length, width and volume aka tonnage, all of them using very strange definitions). This has nothing to do with a "condition survey" or a survey that certifies compliance with Lloyds standards

If the boat is in the UK you can get a tonnage survey for 145.00, see RYA web site for details. If the boat is outside the UK you will have to pay more (been there!).

Cheers
C
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Old 25-11-2012, 11:05   #15
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Re: Lloyd's Certification! German Lloyd's?

My read on that was a survey for some 700 pound was more than a Tonnage survey it would be a vessel survey?
Cheers
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