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Old 01-11-2013, 21:20   #91
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

If you want to fool around with a motor well you can do a search on the Catalina 27 as they used something similar in some models. It took up some cockpit space.
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Old 01-11-2013, 21:25   #92
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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
To comment on two threads of thought simultaneously:

If you want a light marine inboard consider a Faryman, yes they are still in business. 64kg (141lb), 7hp including basic alternator, tranny, fuel pump but not exhaust.
http://www.farymann.com/engines.php?page=18wMarine

Alternatively go with the 4hp outboard and get a "Mr. Vane" self steering gear. That gear will mount under some motor mounts. Also it is the lightest on the market currently. I do not have an opinion on its quality.
http://mrvane.com/?q=super_light_wei..._self-steering

Building your own vane gear is also a possibility.

Regarding anchoring systems:
1) For a boat that size you don't need a windlass unless you are over 75yr old. You do however need chain pawl/stopper, this lets you pull the chain portion in while sitting on deck and allows you to stop and rest if you need to without losing ground so to speak.

2) The smallest galvanized anchor chain on the market is 1/4". As I understand it smaller cant be hot dipped which is what you have to have for saltwater, electroplated just doesn't last. There is an alternative, 3/16" stainless and it's similarly priced to 1/4" high test. I've got a chart that interpolates the ABYC anchor loads, for your boat in 42kt winds expect 100b loads at worst. For your size boat the 3/16 work just fine in the Caribbean.

3) Anchors. Here's the bare minimum I would carry:
1 general purpose anchor (CQR,Bruce Supreme Rocna . . .) whatever size is recommended for your boat go up at least one size. If you are in the top 1/3 of the range go up 2 sizes, if in the bottom 1/3 one size up is enough. In the middle third the choice depends on your risk tolerance.
1 aluminum fluke anchor (Fortress, Manson, whatever) Get the biggest one you think you can handle from a dinghy. This is for really soft bottoms when fluke area is the most important consideration. When you have prior warning of really bad weather you can set multiple anchors and this is the one that will probably have the best holding, depending on the bottom so it will get set in the direction of maximum expected winds. And if heavy weather comes up unexpectedly and you want to set out an extra anchor it is sized for handling from the dinghy.
Accidentally posted before done.

Anchor loads should be about 1000lb not 100. WLL for 3/16" 316L stainless varies between 800-1200lb. ABYC is very conservative and even the 800WLL should be fine unless you start thinking about going offshore for serious. The advantage is that it weighs about half what 1/4" weighs which makes carrying an oversized main anchor a lot more palatable.

I would carry the main anchor on the bow roller with 100-150' of chain is another 200-300' of laid nylon rope. There would be an additional length of chain in the bilge for extra deep anchorages or to replace the main bower if lost or if you feel you need a second anchor in coral strewn waters.

The other anchors would have a boat length's chain plus 300' of rope all stored in the bilge.

Anchors
1 hooking anchor such as Luke or Herrschoff. This anchor is for weeds that will keep most others from setting and rocks where the general purpose anchor may or may not set well. I am torn about sizing. Luke recommends 2lb per foot of LWL which results in a very heavy anchor that could be used as storm anchor but which would be hard to set from dinghy. 1lb per foot LOD would be a lot easier to handle not wouldn't be storm anchor. Give the oversized main anchor I would probably go lighter. Both these anchors break down into 3 pieces for stowage. The Herrschoff is available in bronze in smaller sizes.

Those are the 3 basic anchors I would carry. My first extra would be another GP anchor of recommended size or one up if close to top of size range. This backup anchor would be of a different type than the main anchor.

I might also carry an undersized kedge anchor.
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Old 01-11-2013, 22:04   #93
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Oh yeah, oversize cleats on the bow, 2 at least, 3 for preference. By oversized I mean 10" minimum, 12 better. A couple amidships and one on each quarter would be a really good idea for mooring.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:39   #94
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

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Originally Posted by trapoc View Post
Grant I am worried about how much weight I will be adding and am trying to find a formula to use ...
Pounds Per Inch Immersion might help.

(PPI): The weight required to sink the yacht one inch. It is calculated by multiplying the LWL area by 5.333 for sea water or 5.2 for fresh. The PPI usually increases as the hull sinks into the water as the LWL area is also increasing due to the shape of the hull above water.

http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html

See also MTI.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:48   #95
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Charley, I am not at all a designer, but If you find the original designed displacement of the boat, and estimate the weight of what you have torn out (yes! a wild guess) and sit with a calculator and add up all of the things you think you need to put in (including all of the wood work) you may scare yourself with the result. Another way to do it, might be to get a mechanic from a local small airport to bring out his scales and actually weigh the now empty boat, and start figuring weight from there. Stripped, your boat probably doesnt weigh more than 2000 lbs, which is well within small airplane scale capabilitys. Generator, watermaker,solar panels, ground tackle, dinghy, etc,etc,etc, all add up quickly. As I have said before, all things are a compromise in a small boat. Good Luck with it. ____Grant.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:56   #96
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

You could do a rough estimate of the volume of water displaced based on the original waterline.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:04   #97
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

The boat will hadle a small diesel set inboard far better than a kicker on the stern. It'll be a lot of work though.
I agree.... dont mess with Gary Mull's sailplan.... the guy designs great sailing boats!
Did I see a 3 cyl Kubota in a post you have found? If that's yours, take note... you need a flywheel for it. I tried to make a gen set out of one of those once... same type... no flywheel... the thing vibrated so badly it cracked the engine support frame .... twice! Also split the V belt pulley...
Windvane... forget it.... keep weight off the stern of that little boat.... go sailing... you can always add a vane later if you find it mandatory. Right now , pick up an inexpensive tiller pilot.
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Old 03-11-2013, 17:58   #98
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Charley,

I have been reading this thread with some interest and have a few thoughts to offer. To provide a context for my thoughts two years ago my wife and I completed a three year rebuild of a 30' sailboat that required we take her down to a bare hull and full deck replacement. I am a custom homebuilder with 40 years experience in building homes and 20 years experience sailing 16' to 25' sailboats. Other than small adjustments I have never worked on a boat of any knid.

I have been disappointed in the folks who simply told you you had the wrong boat with little explanation as to why they felt that way. I do not know your boat so I can't speak specifically to your rebuild but would offer one lesson learned from our years of looking for the right boat to rebuild. Like most manufactured items boats are typically designed with a balance of expense in their component parts and methods of construction. As a result all of the choices in a MacGregor are of a similar quality, as are the choices in a Hinkley. No amount of quality rebuilding of a MacGregor will make it a Hinkley. This goes for all the parts but more critically the very hull itself. If the man designing your boat set out to build a lightweight day sailor for lake sailing no improvement you can make can change that. Even the designer\builder would tell you that. I don't know enough about your boat to tell if you have the right starting point or not but after spending three years in reconstruction I can tell you how important that selection is. The lesson here is simple-- make sure you sailing dream is a good match with your rebuild project. At this point either is adjustable.

My second thought relates to the importance of recognizing the difference between structural changes and cosmetic changes. Many of the changes you are considering are part of a complex and interrelated design that is a fine balance of all the pieces. Changing from a bulkhead to a compression post addresses one direction of force but not all. Moving chainplates outboard where they are visible is a good change but the design must take into account the entire group of forces at work. The original bulkhead may have distributed the compression forces of the mast over a wide surface area that may not be simply transferred to a single point load on the new mast step. The construction below the new mast step may not be designed to take a point load of any kind. No forum can help you redesign critical structural aspects of a boat we haven't been intimately involved with. As Kathy and I addressed our limited structural changes we sought out a local boat builder who knew my boat and good boat design. In every case I was amazed at how many things were affected by the small change I wanted to make and how essential his knowledge was.

Lastly I have been amazed at how much we have learned in the past two years sailing our rebuild. We launched her with a long list of things undone and felt we would come to regret it. None of the items was related to the core aspects and sailing and safety. All were refinements of the basics, layout ideas and finishes below. Contrary to our concerns we found delaying these aspects allowed us to create different and better solutions. Things we thought were essential turned out to be unnecessary. The lesson here is keep the rebuild as simple as you can, get her out on the water and find out for yourself how she sails and lives.

I truly wish you best, in you work to rebuild her and your life aboard.

fair winds,

drew
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Old 03-11-2013, 18:49   #99
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Nice post, Drew, and bloody good advice!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 03-11-2013, 18:50   #100
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Charley, a few posts back you talked about using the outboard for both the mother ship, and the dinghy. I dont mean to discourage you, but I went through that stage with my 26 footer. The long shaft Seagull would push the boat (if the water was calm) but when put on the Avon Redstart it would fold the poor dinghy almost in two. Even pumped up as solid as an old Avon can go, the long shaft was too much twist for the rubber ducky. A rigid dinghy might work better, but there is no room on a 25 footer to stow one. After that Seaslug died from salt water poisoning, I bought a Seagull Featherweight,(small,short shaft) that worked fine on the dinghy, but was a joke on the mother ship. There were a few times where I rafted the dinghy to the big boat and manuvered around an anchorage that way, and it worked pretty well. On another note, what is the designed displacement of your boat? My 26 footer was 5400 lbs. The starting point makes a big difference in how much weight you can add. _____Grant.
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Old 03-11-2013, 21:30   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The boat will hadle a small diesel set inboard far better than a kicker on the stern. It'll be a lot of work though.
I agree.... dont mess with Gary Mull's sailplan.... the guy designs great sailing boats!

Windvane... forget it.... keep weight off the stern of that little boat.... go sailing... you can always add a vane later if you find it mandatory. Right now , pick up an inexpensive tiller pilot.
While my preference would be the inboard for a variety of reasons, the boat was intended as a racer-cruiser which means several folks in the cockpit when racing. As a singlehander he can afford to hang some weight on the stern. The way I see it a 60lb 4hp and a 20lb vane on the stern are going to be equivalent to at most 2 crew in the cockpit.

As far as the sailplan goes it is a functional piece of equipment not a unique piece of art however good Mull was at designing. The function of the sailplan was to move the boat and to rate well under the IOR handicapping rule. The disappearance of the IOR removes that as a reason not change the rig. Given that the function of the boat as a whole has changed from racer-cruiser to just cruiser there is a legitimate argument that changes to the rig be considered.
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Old 04-11-2013, 21:27   #102
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewcathell View Post
Charley,

I have been reading this thread with some interest and have a few thoughts to offer. To provide a context for my thoughts two years ago my wife and I completed a three year rebuild of a 30' sailboat that required we take her down to a bare hull and full deck replacement. I am a custom homebuilder with 40 years experience in building homes and 20 years experience sailing 16' to 25' sailboats. Other than small adjustments I have never worked on a boat of any knid.

I have been disappointed in the folks who simply told you you had the wrong boat with little explanation as to why they felt that way. I do not know your boat so I can't speak specifically to your rebuild but would offer one lesson learned from our years of looking for the right boat to rebuild. Like most manufactured items boats are typically designed with a balance of expense in their component parts and methods of construction. As a result all of the choices in a MacGregor are of a similar quality, as are the choices in a Hinkley. No amount of quality rebuilding of a MacGregor will make it a Hinkley. This goes for all the parts but more critically the very hull itself. If the man designing your boat set out to build a lightweight day sailor for lake sailing no improvement you can make can change that. Even the designer\builder would tell you that. I don't know enough about your boat to tell if you have the right starting point or not but after spending three years in reconstruction I can tell you how important that selection is. The lesson here is simple-- make sure you sailing dream is a good match with your rebuild project. At this point either is adjustable.

My second thought relates to the importance of recognizing the difference between structural changes and cosmetic changes. Many of the changes you are considering are part of a complex and interrelated design that is a fine balance of all the pieces. Changing from a bulkhead to a compression post addresses one direction of force but not all. Moving chainplates outboard where they are visible is a good change but the design must take into account the entire group of forces at work. The original bulkhead may have distributed the compression forces of the mast over a wide surface area that may not be simply transferred to a single point load on the new mast step. The construction below the new mast step may not be designed to take a point load of any kind. No forum can help you redesign critical structural aspects of a boat we haven't been intimately involved with. As Kathy and I addressed our limited structural changes we sought out a local boat builder who knew my boat and good boat design. In every case I was amazed at how many things were affected by the small change I wanted to make and how essential his knowledge was.

Lastly I have been amazed at how much we have learned in the past two years sailing our rebuild. We launched her with a long list of things undone and felt we would come to regret it. None of the items was related to the core aspects and sailing and safety. All were refinements of the basics, layout ideas and finishes below. Contrary to our concerns we found delaying these aspects allowed us to create different and better solutions. Things we thought were essential turned out to be unnecessary. The lesson here is keep the rebuild as simple as you can, get her out on the water and find out for yourself how she sails and lives.

I truly wish you best, in you work to rebuild her and your life aboard.

fair winds,

drew
Drew thank you for your comments I am truly interested in all opinions about the construction of my vessel. I have done a lot of thinking about the forces involved in keeping the mast upright and the hull sound. I know about the shear loads the shrouds would put on the chain plates if moved to the outside of the hull and I know about the compressing forces also involved. I have been searching the internet for other people who have done the sort of thing I am attempting. I know in the end all I will have is a Gary Mull designed 25ft Bayliner. I not looking to make a Hinckley out of her but am trying to make her as safe and easy to use as possible. I will be posting pictures as soon as I have my floorplan layed out. I hope to do this all on paper before I cut my first template. I have taken measurements of the structural components of the boat and have gutted it completely. I have saved everything that I took out of the boat so I can weigh it. All locations of removed components have been noted also. As for inspiration I have found the web sight of Webb Chiles and have been reading a lot of his writing, that guy is remarkable. Thanks for your advise I appreciate every bit of it. Charley
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Old 04-11-2013, 21:36   #103
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Charley, a few posts back you talked about using the outboard for both the mother ship, and the dinghy. I dont mean to discourage you, but I went through that stage with my 26 footer. The long shaft Seagull would push the boat (if the water was calm) but when put on the Avon Redstart it would fold the poor dinghy almost in two. Even pumped up as solid as an old Avon can go, the long shaft was too much twist for the rubber ducky. A rigid dinghy might work better, but there is no room on a 25 footer to stow one. After that Seaslug died from salt water poisoning, I bought a Seagull Featherweight,(small,short shaft) that worked fine on the dinghy, but was a joke on the mother ship. There were a few times where I rafted the dinghy to the big boat and manuvered around an anchorage that way, and it worked pretty well. On another note, what is the designed displacement of your boat? My 26 footer was 5400 lbs. The starting point makes a big difference in how much weight you can add. _____Grant.
Yes I did talk about a dual purpose outboard. My thoughts are that I will do some research into the torqueedo electric outboards, from what I can tell they are light weight and can produce plenty of torque. I dont see my self needing a lot of speed for an extended period of time and think that the torqueedo my be more well suited for getting dunked if hanging off the back of my boat. The torqueedo is also small enough that I may be able to devise a suitable motorwell for it. Although that would still be a sizable task, given what I am already doing. As always thanks for your advise. Charley
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Old 04-11-2013, 21:56   #104
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The boat will hadle a small diesel set inboard far better than a kicker on the stern. It'll be a lot of work though.
I agree.... dont mess with Gary Mull's sailplan.... the guy designs great sailing boats!
Did I see a 3 cyl Kubota in a post you have found? If that's yours, take note... you need a flywheel for it. I tried to make a gen set out of one of those once... same type... no flywheel... the thing vibrated so badly it cracked the engine support frame .... twice! Also split the V belt pulley...
Windvane... forget it.... keep weight off the stern of that little boat.... go sailing... you can always add a vane later if you find it mandatory. Right now , pick up an inexpensive tiller pilot.
Yes that is a 3cyl 720d kubota supermini, I have the flywheel and all related parts. I like the engine but the fuel consumption numbers are not that great. I just stripped it down for cleaning and painting.
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Old 05-11-2013, 21:36   #105
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

For anyone who didn't see this on the other thread, its very interesting. Charley
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