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Old 31-10-2013, 17:30   #46
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Trapoc, to get back to your earlier question about cruising without an inboard. It does limit the places you can go, especially if there are currents to contend with. It also makes planning much more iffy. I have spent more than a few nights hove too, off of an anchorage that I could not make by dark because of light winds. I am afraid your idea of 2 mini electric outboards will give you nothing but grief. I had an outboard on my boat after I removed the diesel, and after about the 14th time it went under water, it was given a decent burial at sea. The electric outboards will fail much sooner if they get dipped(which they will) in the salt water. You mentioned 2 outboards, a big bank of batteries, and a diesel generator. That is a lot of weight. You might just consider doing a normal small diesel installation. If the placement of the engine is a problem, you could go with a hydraulic drive and put the diesel where ever you wanted. Again, an electric drive (motor in the bilge) would probably be much less reliable than a diesel/hydraulic set up. Electrons and salt water dont go well together. Another thought about the interior! My boat had bunks that were canvas(actually some kind of synthetic) that were laced tight, but still had a little sag to them. They were really good sea berths. I have delivered other small boats that had the standard plywood with foam bunks and they were not nearly as secure feeling. Lee clothes that tied to the overhead hand rails added to the security. The motion is quicker in a small boat, so bunk security is important if you value your rest at sea. Because of the quicker motion of a small boat you should think of as many handholds as you can possibly install. Have fun with your project, but I also suggest more reading and research to fine tune your ideas. Good Luck. ______Grant.
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Old 31-10-2013, 17:43   #47
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Put your greatest effort into a strong rudder with a back up plan if it breaks. Next put great attention into the soundness of the rig and reefing procedures in rough conditions. Make sure windows and hatches will not break and have a back up plan if they do. Make sure all through hulls and sea-cocks are sound and have a adequate pumping plan. Have a good working plan for heaving too or lying to sea anchor. Make sure you know how to navigate and have adequate charts. I have been in 60 foot waves on a CG cutter during a hurricane rescue of 5 from a sail boat and personally would not do what you intend but since you intend to do it the above is my best advise from experience.
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Old 31-10-2013, 17:47   #48
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Grant I like the idea about the bunk situation. I have also thought about the hydraulic drive setup. I just didn't have any info concerning how to do a hydraulic drive. Do you have any sources for such a system. There isnt much room for a thru hull prop shaft and I don't want to have the drive hanging way off the back of the boat. I also have done some research on Torqeedo drives they have models that put out the equivalent of a 9.9 outboard, but they would still have to hang off the back of the boat. Thanks Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:00   #49
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Eyschulman thanks for your input. This boat has what I suspect would be over kill for the rudder, but I agree a back up system should be in place. When I am done with the project there will only be one thru hull below the water line. There will be a bulk head high enough to keep flooding to that one compartment which will unfortunately contain the engine and water maker.That seacock will be back 3/4 of the way along the water line in the center of the boat. My main worry now is the main hatch into the cabin and what to change to make it completely water tight incase of a rollover. I do appreaciate the great sugestions that you guys are giving me regarding reconditioning of this boat. Thanks Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:08   #50
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

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Rhapsody the bulk heads in the front this boat were designed to take the load from the mast. I am changing the mast support to a compression post which goes from the base of the hull to the deck. I am then building a new support structure for the chain plates. This is where the relocating of the forward most bulkheads comes into play. I will be adding several more bulkheads in various locations and making some areas water tight. I have been told that because bayliner built this particular boat that it has to be junk, I'm wondering what people would think if it had been built by Pearson, Triton or us yachts. What I have is an absolutely bare hull now other then the bolts holding the two halves together what has the manufacturer done wrong? The glass is in great condition other then some coring around the windows the deck is solid and in good shape. I will replace the coring material and install fixed windows. I'm looking for a good weather seal for the forward hatch any suggestions ? Thanks Charley
Keep in mind , the bulkhead under the mast area not only supports the mast.... it keeps the pull of the rigging wires from squeezing the boat narrower! It's surprising how much boats flex....
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:09   #51
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Hydraulic drives are common in industrial situations. The most recent one I saw was on one of those rental cement wagons that you can buy a yard of cement and drive it home, and it turns the whole time. The pump on the engine is small, and the drive motor is small. It could be mounted to a prop shaft rather neatly. I think military surplus places would be a good spot to start looking. Fitting things into a small boat is always a compromise. Good Luck. _____Grant.
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:15   #52
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

A bridge deck for the cockpit to companionway if not already!

Also, if you go inboard, something like a 1GM Yanmar would probably cut it. You could find a reconditioned one for fairly cheap.

Otherwise, maybe an outboard motor well such as this: Atom Voyages - Outboard motor well for a Taipan 28 sailboat
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:38   #53
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Thank you and I have considered that in picking the new locations for the bulkheads. I am wondering if it would be worth the effort to move the chain plates to the out side of the hull from their current location. It would make securing them less difficult but access to forward deck would be compromised. Thanks Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 18:54   #54
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Laika unfortunately there is no room for a motor well on my boat. A motor well would have to be right in the middle of the cockpit. I alreaqdy have purchased a Kubota 720d 3cyl diesel. The Kubota is super compact and only weighs about 100lbs. Thanks for the suggestion Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 19:07   #55
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Laika yes this boat does have a bridge deck from the factory I hadn't even thought about that. I do want the cockpit to drain as fast as possible so I am planning a third drain straight out the back. Thanks again Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 20:03   #56
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

What made you choose the Bayliner?
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Old 31-10-2013, 22:02   #57
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

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Adelie the inner for-stay sounds like a very good idea, i think a small bow pulpit and move the forward stay to the end of it. I could then use the original mounting point for the inner stay. I particularly care for roller furling jibs,it seems like more parts to fail whats your opinion ? as for the shrouds I believe this boat already has double shrouds. I plan on upgrading the wire size. Thanks again Charley
What I indicated in my previous post is that double lower shrouds would be a good idea. Most of the photos I could find for that model show single upper and single lower shrouds each side, with a few photos that were ambiguous. If you have single uppers and double lowers then you are doing fine. If you have 1 upper and 1 lower each side then now is the time to change that. Go look at cruising boats in your area, the vast majority of them will have double lowers, the few that don't are probably converted coastal boats or racers.

Double lowers do 2 things:
1) Redundant mast support
2) Improved support of the mast in the fore and aft direction.


By "particularly care for roller furling jibs" I think you mean that you are concerned about their reliability. I concur generally though they have improved in the last decade from what I can tell.

For a straight up sloop, changing roller furling sails in heavy weather is an extreme pain. Consequently there is a big temptation to use the sail roller reefed past the point that is good for the sail or efficient for the sail and once you are past the point that you really have to change to a smaller jib, it may not be possible to do so let alone safely. For this reason I would not have a roller furler on a sloop.

With a removable inner forestay the equation changes. The headsail can be roller furling and the staysail can be hanked on. The head sail pretty much becomes permanently set on the roller furler. Once heavy weather sets in all the sail area adjustments are made by changing or reefing staysails which are hanked on. This is not to say that the head sail should be roller furling, just that the risks and hassles are significantly reduced if you choose to have it on the head stay.

Advantages of having an inner forestay:
1) Redundant mast support from the extra rigging.
2) Potentially better balance under storm sails
3) Probably you can get away without a trysail
4) Fewer sails need to be stored below, probably just 2 a drifter for very light air and a storm staysail for very heavy weather.
5) Marginally easier changing of the hanked on staysail compared to changing a hanked on headsail. Much easier than changing a roller furling headsail.
6) Staysail can be made to self-tack like the main.

Disadvantages:
Harder to tack when the inner forestay is set.

L&L Pardey have a pattern for a J-hook that you can cut out of bronze or stainless flatstock for the forestay deck attachment. The pattern has been on their website and it is in one of their books.


I sounds like you are considering adding a bowsprit. The boat is probably reasonably well balanced as is. If you add a bowsprit you will be adding foresail area and will need to lengthen the boom to balance that. If you don't increase mainsail area you will probably create leehelm which can be dangerous. Given that this is an IOR boat that has a relatively short boom to begin with there is room to lengthen the boom. Keep in mind that doing so will require replacement of the main.

Adding a bowsprit will probably not let you attach the inner forestay to the existing stem fitting, give the size of boat I would be surprised if the headstay moved more than 18" or so forward.

If you add a bowsprit the inner forestay should probably attach to the deck right at the tip of the v-berth. Adding a bulkhead here to resist the uplift would give you better separation between the headsail and staysail and would create a space that could be a chain locker.

If you don't add a bowsprit then the inner forestay should hit the deck a bit further back still, 4-8" say.
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Old 31-10-2013, 23:09   #58
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Adelie I have 3 chain plates on each side of the boat and 2 in the rear and 1 in the front. This leads me to believe that this boat does have double lower shrouds. Its hard to get to my mast because I have it tied up in the rafters of my shop but i can see at least 7 shrouds on it. I was thinking of adding a bow pulpit to put an anchor roller on. But thought it might also serve as an additional chain plate. You are really helping me sort this stuff out and I could send pics of my boat so you could verify if I am correct. Thanks Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 23:22   #59
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

Adodero I didnt choose a bayliner I chose a Gary Mull design that happened to be built by bayliner and at least 2 other manufacturers. From what I read this boat should sail well and with the right upgrades I believe this boat will serve me well. There are a lot of people that feel otherwise but I believe they are just using a name to justify their opinions. This is not the buccaneer that everyone thinks of, I have seen those boats and would have passed. 10,000 will buy me a boat thats almost ready to go in todays market. I know I will have more then that into just upgrading this boat, but thats part of the fun. I will also know every square inch of this boat when its finished. There will be no guess work for me when maintenance is needed. I will also know where to get spares when needed, if some thing breaks and it will I'll be able to fix it. Check it out this boat was built by other manufacturers good or bad I don't know. Thank you for your interest. Charley
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Old 31-10-2013, 23:28   #60
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Re: Living aboard a 25 ft while crossing oceans

I fixed up a small boat and went sailing. Not across the ocean but up and down the coast to Mexico a couple of times and to Hawaii and back from SF.

Only thing I know I don't like about your boat is the rudder. I prefer a transom mount. Easier to service.

This isn't exactly the crowd to be asking about small boats. Many think bigger is better.

The fellow at junkming's channel - YouTube takes his summers going above the arctic circle and back non-stop, no landings and no motor. Built two boats. Likes the junk rig. He takes a small boat and makes it unsinkable. Looses a lot of interior space but it does what he wants. Doesn't bother with the "gotta haves". A handheld gps is about it.

With the weight of your proposed batteries and generator, you're using up a lot of your available displacement.
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