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Old 17-07-2016, 04:40   #16
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
It's a matter of local terminology. In a lot of the world, lifelines run through stanchions. what you are calling lifelines are known as jacklines or jackstays in those areas.

(This also from a native speaker of Her Majesty's English )
Churchill once said "we are a people divided by a common language" which pretty much sums up the Anglophonic world.

Any language where the word faggot can mean anything from a meatball to a bunch of sticks to light a fire to a homosexual is going to have misunderstandings.

And to confuse matters further the Union Flag is only called a Union Jack when flown from the jackstay on a naval vessel. So you can't use jackstay to describe a lifeline.

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Old 17-07-2016, 06:27   #17
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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So you can't use jackstay to describe a lifeline.
Tell that to Wichart, Marlow, Liros, Safeolina and the numerous other companies who manufacture and market "webbing jackstays".



Edit: And you'd better go and amend Wiktionary too:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jackstay
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Old 17-07-2016, 06:34   #18
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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Originally Posted by kas_1611 View Post
And to confuse matters further the Union Flag is only called a Union Jack when flown from the jackstay on a naval vessel.
You may like to read this:
The Union Jack or The Union Flag? - The Flag Institute

and then re-consider your statement.
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Old 17-07-2016, 07:54   #19
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

Well you learn something new every day

Mind you they do say the 2 most useless things on a boat are an umbrella and a retired naval officer

Nothing stopping anyone calling them whatever they like but I prefer to think of lines I clip onto to save my life as Lifelines and rails that guard against me going over the side as Guard Rails. Whether we use metal rails, steel wires, webbing or fancy new ropes is a personal choice.
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Old 17-07-2016, 08:01   #20
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

Bigger concern about Dyneema lifelines in my opinion is UV degradation, combined with the ability to accidentally cut them with a good knife (like the one I carry). I removed the ones that came with the boat I bought and replaced the single Dyneema lines with double SS.
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Old 17-07-2016, 09:32   #21
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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Bigger concern about Dyneema lifelines in my opinion is UV degradation, combined with the ability to accidentally cut them with a good knife (like the one I carry). I removed the ones that came with the boat I bought and replaced the single Dyneema lines with double SS.
that's the thing that keeps me from switching to dyneema. i had even considered going with stays of high tech line instead of ss wire. but, then, i thought," it's not hard to cut rope. what happens if a shroud gets cut? you can't easily cut stainless steel." and i didn't do it. it's best to be conservative when safety is the issue.
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Old 17-07-2016, 12:09   #22
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

Exactly how does one "accidentally cut" a life line with any knife? I don't understand that. It would be like saying SS lifelines have the ability to be accidentally cut with a good wire cutter.

Failure from abrasion from a sheet or a badly prepared stantion I can see, but a knife?

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Old 17-07-2016, 13:24   #23
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

I would vote for my 23mm (~1/2") stainless lifelines. They are 65cm (a bit more than 2') from the deck. The middle one is synthetic white plastic covered stuff. I'm not sure about fiber type but the material is sold by respectable chandlers specifically to use as lifelines. Outer (white) cover is supposed to be there for UV protection. The only negative I've found out with that setting is that the synthetic (PVC?) covering of my middle life lines gets a bit yellowish over time.
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Old 17-07-2016, 13:59   #24
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

Like an anchoring thread.

Cut by accident. Yes, Dyneema can chafe and be cut, but not that easily. In fact, all of the failures I know of have been caused by racing-specific miss-use (hanging rail meat, chewing up the stanchions first with bare wire, jibe on a big boat). But that is it's own thread.

Tripping hazard. Since you can only trip if your foot is past the edge of the deck, and the lines are on the edge, if you tripped I think you were going anyway. Furthermore, if you were standing tall going forward, that is your mistake.

Never touch them. I use them all the time for balance, and I have never had a leak or wear, but I use them in a very specific way. I pull up, often with a jackline in the other hand, to help keep my feet on the deck. Perhaps this is a multihull thing, since they buck vertically but do not lean. I do not pull to the side.

Centerline jacklines. I have yet to read of a sailor falling off to windward. Possible, but if you are keeping low, you are going to fall to leeward. As racing history supports and Evan has discussed, sailors don't fall when they are moving and focused on moving, they fall when they are working and not holding on. Thus, point of use tethers make sense and the hope for a one-size-fits-all solution is in vain, I believe.

Get low. I do a lot of scooting, sitting, and crouching.

Save my bacon. It's hard to say, because I behave differently knowing they are there. Certainly, I have allowed my tether to catch me many times. Often I lean on it, as a 3rd leg. I've never had a close call (other than docking!) that would have been different without a tether... because I would have been moving differently.

Strength of lifelines. The stanchions are primarily to hold the spacing, like a net. The strength comes from the end fittings. If they are too weak, try to pull them off. Good luck.

Spacing. It is possible to slide under. I know of several cases where sailors went under because they had removed the middle wire. Stupid. Honestly, I would rather see a good toe rail requirement. That is what I always want on the bow.

Too small to hold. I always wear gloves in bouncy weather when going forward, specifically so that I can really yard on a stay or cable if thrown without injury. Always. With gloves, you can latch onto pretty much anything. It is a safety matter, like wearing PFD or harness.

Stretch. The article I wrote of Practical Sailor discussed stretch, strength, and that one material and specification probably cannot serve all boats. A smaller boat benefits from more stretch and needs less strength. A bigger boat--over 40'--probably needs less stretch and greater strength than polyester lines afford. The use of climbing webbing for jacklines bothers me, not because it will break, but because it is too stretchy. The use of Amsteel requires increase engineering (easily done).

As for the British posters, jibe is spelled gybe and crabs are made from aluminium on YBW.com. I'm OK with that, and I change my spellings there. Standard American English is the international standard, judging from ISO etc. As for silly or vague figures of speech, both dialects are a mess, without considering the more ghastly regional variations. They're both fun to misuse!
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Old 17-07-2016, 16:37   #25
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Exactly how does one "accidentally cut" a life line with any knife? I don't understand that. It would be like saying SS lifelines have the ability to be accidentally cut with a good wire cutter.

Failure from abrasion from a sheet or a badly prepared stantion I can see, but a knife?

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well, if you are attacked while moored at a foreign port of call and you are involved in a wild, heated knife fight....

seriously though, i don't think the fear is that you would accidentally cut the line with your knife, although anything is possible. i think it's more of an issue that it can be cut by a knife.

a good nick by a sharp object would seriously weaken the line. if the nick happened and went unnoticed for a time...

bad stuff never happens when everything is tip top and you are prepared. it always happens when some seemingly little detail is missed.

maybe not as much of a risk in a lifeline as with a stay, although murphy is always making up new laws, but, still it is a vulnerability. it's a little less likely that ss is going to accidentally get cut by a freak wire cutter accident than that a dyneema line might get nicked or cut by a sharp object.
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Old 19-07-2016, 14:05   #26
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Smile Re: Life Lines ... again ...

replaced the top line on my boat with solid stainless tubing- -- made the whole assembly much more stable and secure. also the tensile strength if that tubing is pretty high. End fittings are secured with a 3/8" through bolt - bottom line if the ss rail ever rips off that boat i am absolutely hosed anyway.
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Old 19-07-2016, 14:19   #27
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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- bottom line if the ss rail ever rips off that boat i am absolutely hosed anyway.
After I crash into a dock, a piling, or even another boat, I am only pissed off..
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Old 19-07-2016, 15:49   #28
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Re: Life Lines ... again ...

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Originally Posted by Madehn View Post
replaced the top line on my boat with solid stainless tubing- -- made the whole assembly much more stable and secure. also the tensile strength if that tubing is pretty high. End fittings are secured with a 3/8" through bolt - bottom line if the ss rail ever rips off that boat i am absolutely hosed anyway.
pictures?
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