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Old 14-12-2017, 19:23   #1
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Let's revisit through hull installations

I took out my old through hulls (3/4 Wilcox crittenden) taperd cone type, which I know are rebuildable. However I don't see why any one would want to rebuild them, and resuse them. Same goes for the traditional type seacocks. how would you change that out 600 miles offshore? .I'm thinking the best way to go is the flange adapters. They go bad at sea hop over plug the hole from the outside unscrew the ball valve and replace. I'm still green here so maybe I'm missing something here? Dont the flange adapters make the rest obsolete? Any how my original questions are ; when I pulled out the WC valves there was 2 through bolts the new ones have 3 so I need to fill the old 2. My hull is 1/2" where the bolts are. I got some white marinetex to do the job. I'm thinking bevel the hole plush in the putty and ... You know the rest. I have westsystem laying around too. What's the go to way to fill the holes? Then the rabbit hole gets deeper...I have the taperd 5/16 screws once I counter sink those there's not much meat left to grab. So I was thinking the"proper" way is countersink them and cover with epoxy. But this still seems cheesy to me. Not much meat for the heads to grab and not much epoxy to cover. I'm thinking pan heads with 5200 standing proud is the way to go? Minus the drag what's wrong with this approach? And to seal the mushroom head and bolt holes I use 5200? And one more thing. My motor intake screen? Isn't this another bad design? I have an intake strainer so why would I want a screen to block access so I can't plug my through hull? What am I missing here?
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Old 14-12-2017, 20:13   #2
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24 View Post
I'm thinking pan heads with 5200 standing proud is the way to go? Minus the drag what's wrong with this approach? And to seal the mushroom head and bolt holes I use 5200?
I will let others answer your through hull questions.

Forget 5200 even exists unless you are building a hull/deck joint. 5200 is, first and foremost, an adhesive with the ability to create a seal. It is not a general sealant and should not be used for the purpose of gluing bolts into your hull, nor to bed anything on your boat.

Use epoxy with finely cut strands of fiberglass cloth mixed in to fill the old bolt holes.
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Old 15-12-2017, 05:35   #3
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

So as far as sealing the mushroom head I'd want an adhesive and a sealant I assumed 5200 was the weapon of choice. What do you recommend? As far as the marinetex for filling the holes, no go?
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Old 15-12-2017, 05:54   #4
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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So as far as sealing the mushroom head I'd want an adhesive and a sealant I assumed 5200 was the weapon of choice. What do you recommend? As far as the marinetex for filling the holes, no go?
If you have never had to remove something bedded with 5200, it would be difficult to comprehend how difficult and usually destructive the process becomes.

Why would you want to adhere something that is removable? Bolts are supposed to be removable. Anything that is bolted/screwed down is intended to be removable, usually for service or replacement, even if 30 years from now.

As a boat builder, I generally do not through bolt anything to the hull unless there is no other way, i.e.: grounding plate. Less holes through the hull is ALWAYS a good thing. For seacocks, I generally install (glue with epoxy) a very thick (1.5" +) backing plate to the hull and screw or bolt the seacock flange to that, using butyl rubber or Dolphinite bedding compound on the flange along with pipe dope on the threads of the thru-hull. For the flange of the thru-hull I use butyl rubber or other types of bedding compounds.

Yes, Marinetex will work for filling the holes. I still like to add some finely chopped strands of FG or Kevlar to the mix. However, unsupported Marinetex in a simple hole through the hull will generally be insufficient as the plug could be pushed or worked out over time. It is better to have a solid backing epoxied to the inside of the hull over the filled holes.
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Old 15-12-2017, 06:02   #5
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

I've never heard of anyone needing to change a seacock at sea. Who carries spare seacocks? I would reuse the Wilcox seacocks if they are in good shape. They need a little more maintenance than a modern ball valve, but not much.

If you want to go with a ball valve, the Groco adapter is fine. I would also use the Groco backing plate. It has threaded inserts that you can screw the adapter to. This eliminates any screws that go through the hull.

I would use 5200 to bed both the mushroom head of the thru-hull and the adapter base.
It's not the devil's glue that others would have you believe. Metal pieces like you're dealing with are easy to get loose from 5200. Just warm them with a propane torch and the jump right off.

The backing block should be epoxy glued to the hull. You want it to become part of the hull.

Groco Seacock Backing Block

Groco Flanged Adapter IBVF
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Old 15-12-2017, 06:14   #6
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

I was just thinking I had a seacocks seize open once with a cracked hose ( the Wilcox type). I jumped over plugged the hole bit couldn't change the valve so I had to let the water gush in while I switched the hose. Had I've had the adapter I could have fixed it once and for all . Still would have dealt with the water but it would have been done once and for all. As far as bolts going through the hull into the flange from the outside in. I'd rather not as just use the nut and washer/ backing plate to pull the mushroom head in tight . But I'm not really sure what the proper procedure is here. Ive read that bolts thigh the hull countersunk as the head holes covered w epoxy is proper although it defies my logic. And I don't want it to be removable. If 30 yrs from now I must remove it I'd rather drill out the bolts and do some fiberglass work on the hard .
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Old 15-12-2017, 06:23   #7
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

When we removed and replaced all the thru hulls three years ago I made 1/2 backing plates out of fiberglass mat and epoxy with embedded bolts to attach the flange seacocks to. This was then glassed to the hull and drilled thru. Yes I made templates for them to hold the bolts in the correct spacing and drilled the center hole a 3/32 larger to accommodate sealant. This allowed no extra holes and provided a secure mount for seacock and ability to change if needed. Typical plate was 6x8. For 1-2 thru Hull.
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Old 15-12-2017, 07:11   #8
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24 View Post
I was just thinking I had a seacocks seize open once with a cracked hose ( the Wilcox type). I jumped over plugged the hole bit couldn't change the valve so I had to let the water gush in while I switched the hose. Had I've had the adapter I could have fixed it once and for all . Still would have dealt with the water but it would have been done once and for all. As far as bolts going through the hull into the flange from the outside in. I'd rather not as just use the nut and washer/ backing plate to pull the mushroom head in tight . But I'm not really sure what the proper procedure is here. Ive read that bolts thigh the hull countersunk as the head holes covered w epoxy is proper although it defies my logic. And I don't want it to be removable. If 30 yrs from now I must remove it I'd rather drill out the bolts and do some fiberglass work on the hard .


Valves will all seize without proper maintenance.

That being said, Ive begun to change out all of my tapered plug seacocks with groco flanged adapters. The plugs were too pitted to be economically saved.

My preferred method for removal of tapered plugs and addition of flange adapters is thusly.

Remove mushroom, then locate and remove screws holding tapered valve to the hull. Inside of the hull sand/grind to virgin material and glue down a g-10 backing plate that has been threaded (as mainesail suggests). Then install the mushroom and flange. Glue the whole mess I with 5200. Its dead to me in all other applications except this one. Fair over the now internally covered old holes with glass strand thickened epoxy,screw a valve on inside and go.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/s..._primer&page=2
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Old 15-12-2017, 09:20   #9
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Glad to see this post - the pics below show how the through hull was installed for the sink drain (head) - just held together with some fairly stubborn 'shmoo'. I had intended to simply remove the wooden backing plate and replace with fiberglass - stunned when I managed to pry the wood off the hull and found there was no through hull at all - just a section of threaded plastic pipe, which had been faired seamlessly to the exterior of the hull giving the appearance of a flush mount through hull. This boat is new to us, and had undergone a major refit at a reputable yard - not saying they did it, just that going forward, I know it's on me to not take anything for granted,

That said, I've been reading all available material and was inclined to go the Groco flange route with prefab backing plates, as this seemed the easiest way to get it right for the lifetime of the boat. That said, I came across the "TruDesign" line of through hulls - distributed in the US through Raritan, in stock as a kit through Defender. The installation instructions (PDF available right on Defender's product listing page) call for bedding the skin fitting (what I call a through hull) with West epoxy. The system also calls for fitting a tightening nut, a collar and then the ball valve; the collar sits over the nut and the ball valve threads down till it hits the collar, pre-measuring required to get this part right. The literature states the system meets ABYC standards (500 lb static side load pressure). No backing plate required due to the collar. I like the set up, others have commented about this type favorably on this forum, though it is still maybe a bit new. Seriously considering this approach - cost is maybe a little less than comparable bronze, installation seems straight forward as I am comfortable working with West System epoxy product line.
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Old 15-12-2017, 09:21   #10
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Pbase write ups are very thorough, however I missed that one. Thanks for the link and thanks to all. I think I'm gonna get the adapter. 5200 the mushroom heads. Fill the old holes with west system ( high density filler?). I'll epoxy either fiberglass backing plates or g10. My hull is 1/2 thick . How thick should the plates be
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Old 15-12-2017, 10:30   #11
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

1boat2many them trudesigns you pointed out look pretty good to. I hate anything thraded to be made of plastic. My personal opinion.and I'm a bronze kinda guy. But They seen pretty nice though and no corrosion issues. I'll have to stew on then. I don't care about easy install. I care about longevity and safety. I guess since my paddle wheel and transducer are some type of plastic I ought to consider marelon or the tru design. G.r.Nylon. any one have bad experiences with the marelon they would like to share?
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Old 15-12-2017, 10:39   #12
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

There's an article in the upcoming issue of Good Old Boat (Jan/Feb 2018) that discusses the pros/cons of tapered seacocks and ball valves. While the author clearly favors the tapered plugs, he provides some interesting data and arguments about both valve styles.

That said, I have both types of through-hulls on my boat (ball valve & tapered plug). I haven't (yet) had the experience of any of them failing, though one of the tapered plug seacocks was frozen and couldn't be cycled. I removed it from the boat during a winter layup and overhauled it. That was 20 years ago and it's still working fine.
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Old 15-12-2017, 10:42   #13
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

The tapered WC seacocks are bullet proof. Dont over think this. I share your desire to use mushroom heads instead of flat head bolts. Although I never did it, just used the flat heads. Ditto for flush mount thru hulls.
I've used 5200 many times for this. What I WANT is something that's near impossible to remove! A little heat and the bond is gone anyway, but 5200 on metal comes apart readily without it.
If you ARE going to overthink all this.... a couple things:
-Many ball valves are a mix of metals and the shaft that holds the handle is machined a very tiny diameter at one place on the shaft by design.
- The thickness of bronze material in the thread zone on threaded flange adaptors is very thin. Probably 1/16" or less at the root of the thread.
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Old 15-12-2017, 11:22   #14
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

A friend of mine's favorite quote was, "you are running from more than you are running to". I think that applies here.

Servicing Tapered Cone Seacocks Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com
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Old 15-12-2017, 11:26   #15
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

What are the sizes of the WC seacocks you're replacing. Do you want to sell them?
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