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Old 15-12-2017, 18:44   #46
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Haha why not chromed bronze balls and stainless handles? I'd rather b the handle give way then the ball but why not just go all the way and make our it both? 316 bronze and copper nickel are all acceptable for underwater. Chrome is too?
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Old 15-12-2017, 18:49   #47
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Apollo uses chromed bronze and handles that rust
And grocco uses chromed bronze balls and handles that don't rust?
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Old 15-12-2017, 19:12   #48
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24 View Post
Haha why not chromed bronze balls and stainless handles? I'd rather b the handle give way then the ball but why not just go all the way and make our it both? 316 bronze and copper nickel are all acceptable for underwater. Chrome is too?
316 is not for underwater use as it is subject to crevice corrosion.

You are over thinking this. There is nothing wrong with chromed brass balls.
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Old 15-12-2017, 19:34   #49
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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316 is not for underwater use as it is subject to crevice corrosion.

You are over thinking this. There is nothing wrong with chromed brass balls.
I'm not new to stainless steel but I am new to sailing I weld stainless steel pipes in oil refineries and we use 316l for the world's most wickedest chemicals so I cannot say that is unsuitable for saltwater but I can't say it is suitable for all kinds of nasty stuff
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Old 15-12-2017, 19:49   #50
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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.....but I can't say it is suitable for all kinds of nasty stuff
???

Stainless steel - 304,316 or whatever - corrodes in the presence of chlorides when oxygen isn't present. This applies to almost all underwater stainless on a boat, as well as chainplates where they go through the deck.

Here are 2 examples, the first is a keel bolt that looked good until the keel was dropped and the second is a shaft that corroded in the way of the cutless bearing. Shafting should be Aquamet 22, not stainless, as the former has much better resistance to this corrosion.
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Old 15-12-2017, 20:06   #51
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

I replaced all the seacocks (some were gate valves) on my boat with the Groco Flange adapter system.
Backing plates cut from 1/2" phenolic sheet (cheap, available, easier to work).
Bronze flat head machine screws countersunk into hull with SS nuts/washers on the inside.
I used 5200 to put it all together including bedding the backing plates. I hope they will be there for the life of the boat and you CAN get them off with a bit of heat if needed.

I used a much simpler/faster approach than others have suggested, installed the backing plate, thru hull and flange in one step. But I needed a helper.

This is what I did:
  • Clean up any previous installation, remove any bumps on the interior surface.
  • Drill thru hull hole if not re-using an old one.
  • Test mount thru hull, backing plate and flange adapter.
  • Check that the thru hull is aligned with the hull, look for an even gap between the mushroom head and the hull all the way around.
  • Check that the backing plate fits reasonably against the hull (within 1/8").
  • Grind the hull or the backing plate to make it fit if necessary; if you grind the backing plate, be sure to mark the correct orientation.
  • Drill the three holes for the flange using the flange as a guide; If you can't drill from the inside temporarily reverse the installation so that the flange is outside the hull as a guide.
  • Countersink three holes on the outside of the hull and both sides of the backing plate (extra space for sealant).
  • De-grease all bronze surfaces that need to be bonded.
  • Sand hull inside and out with 80Grit.
  • Solvent wash hull in/out.
  • Solvent wash backing plate both sides.
  • Wear disposable gloves.
  • Have some rags moistened with mineral spirits handy for cleanup inside and out.
  • Apply 5200 to back of thru hull mushroom head and threads, helper sticks it thru the hull and holds it with thru hull wrench or something that will engage the little tangs inside the thru hull.
  • Apply 5200 to machine screw heads and half way up the threads; Insert into hull.
  • Apply 5200 to backing plate and place it over the thru hull and Machine screws (orient if it has been ground to fit the hull).
  • Apply 5200 to flange and place over Machine screws and thru hull.
  • Thread the thru hull into the flange and screw it in gently.
  • Apply washers and nuts to the machine screws and tighten while helper holds them from the outside.
  • Tighten the thru hull a bit more.
  • Clean up with mineral spirit moistened rags.

****
Fill over the Machine screw heads with waterproof filler.
****
Screw on the valves and tailpieces with pipe dope applied to the threads.
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Old 15-12-2017, 20:35   #52
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

I started building my boat with 5200 but switched to Sikaflex early on. The cure times (slow and fast) for 3M PU never really worked for me. I have had great experiences with Sikaflex products, and used them when recaulking the deck. Both product lines use cyanoacrylic (Super Glue) as the adhesive and both can be difficult to remove. The more flexible formulations are easier to cut through and scrape off but the adhesive is the same. It is the relatively hard set of the 5200 that makes it so difficult to remove. For this application there is no need for the harder set.

I can't imagine going back to the tapered seacocks. They require cleaning and greasing during haulouts, and eventually the bronze-bronze contact causes wear (fixed by carefully machining the surfaces). A modern ball valve is made of bronze, with a chrome-plated bronze ball in a Teflon seat. No lubrication is required. (And PLEASE stop using "brass" to describe "bronze" - they are two entirely different metals. Brass doesn't belong on the outside of a boat, and especially not under water. OTOH bronze things that have rested on the bottom of the Med for 4000 years are often brought up intact.)

I have tapped threads into fiberglass in the past with excellent results, and G10 with epoxy instead of polyester resin will be even stronger. FWIW later CG31s were built with solid fiberglass bulwarks and the genoa tracks were commonly fastened through the teak caps into the threaded bulwarks - no problem with the large loads. There shouldn't be a problem with cross-threading as long as the bolts are well started with a gentle turn by hand (try turning backwards until you feel the bolt drop a little, then turn forwards). My approach is to drill about 7/8" deep holes in the 1" G10 (using a drill press with stops is advised) and then hand tapping. The machine screw is 1", so with the 3/8" flange and the 1/16" lock washer there is an easy fit.

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Old 15-12-2017, 21:14   #53
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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......(And PLEASE stop using "brass" to describe "bronze" - they are two entirely different metals. Brass doesn't belong on the outside of a boat, and especially not under water. OTOH bronze things that have rested on the bottom of the Med for 4000 years are often brought up intact.)

Greg
We are not using "brass" to describe bronze. Groco ball valves all have chromed brass balls. Doesn't state what type of brass - could be red brass which is very close to bronze but is heavily chromed in any case. There have not been any issues as far as I know.

One thing to keep in mind whichever valve is used on a flanged adaptor. The valve can easily be changed without hauling the boat. This is not the case of course with a deacock.
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Old 15-12-2017, 21:54   #54
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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We are not using "brass" to describe bronze. Groco ball valves all have chromed brass balls. Doesn't state what type of brass - could be red brass which is very close to bronze but is heavily chromed in any case. There have not been any issues as far as I know.
Apologies. Yes, Groco says bronze body with brass ball. Possibly naval brass. They are one of the few sources that I would trust to get the choice right. I have had some chrome come off (not Groco) but that didn't seem to affect the seal nor corrode the ball.

I have to agree with earlier comments about valves with plated steel handles. I have found that some manufacturers sell two versions, one with a plated steel handle and the other with a stainless handle. I have ordered replacement SS handles in order to eliminate the rusting.

Quote:
One thing to keep in mind whichever valve is used on a flanged adaptor. The valve can easily be changed without hauling the boat. This is not the case of course with a seacock.
That was what I was talking about with hot-swapping. It can be a bit intimidating at first but it is an easy job - just have the valve open when starting the threads.

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Old 16-12-2017, 08:28   #55
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

I had a question about the intake scoop strainer. Is that really necessary I don't like it just for the simple fact that I can't plug the hole from the outside or even drive a plug-in with a smaller taper from the inside. I don't know if that is a motor issue to force water in for the my water pump or what do most of you guys have them?
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Old 16-12-2017, 08:45   #56
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

The scoops/strainers are a mixed blessing. They prevent sucking in small things (minnows, small jellyfish, fabric, etc) into the engine cooling, and without them you definitely need an internal strainer. OTOH I have had jellyfish get sucked onto the strainer and seal the input, resulting in engine overheating at a critical moment (thankfully the sails were ready to hoist). It is easier to clean off a strainer than to unblock the hose so I am in for strainer-style thru-hulls. At sailboat speeds the scoop aspect isn't very important.

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Old 16-12-2017, 15:03   #57
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Ordering the ball valves now. My head's spinning I need 3/4 npt. I'd like a bronze chromed ball. Can't find one only brass chromed ball. What's the best ball valve for a Seacock(3/4 npt since I'll have the grocco flange adapter)
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Old 16-12-2017, 15:32   #58
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Correction buck Algonquin makes a chrome plated bronze ball in a bronze valve. They have a good rep?
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Old 16-12-2017, 16:06   #59
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

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Now I'm gonna get rediculious .... Do they make ball valves with bronze balls? Or taperd cone valves to fit the adapter? I don't like plastic or disimilar metals ( the ball in the ball valves). The nice thing (in my mind) abouit the taperd cone is there's no nylon or what ever it is that creates the seal on the ball valve. And the cone is bronze to. I feel that the through hull screwed and permanently sealed into the backing plate which is epoxied into the hull with the through bolts screwed into that is pretty bullet proof. I'm thinking now the weak link is the actual ball and it's plastic gasket.
You're overthinking it. The stainless balls in my 28 year old Apollo seacocks were as good as the day they were installed. I'm sure the Groco chrome plated balls will last just as long. Besides which, the whole point of the Groco flanged adapter is to make it easy to replace the valve.
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Old 16-12-2017, 17:46   #60
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Re: Let's revisit through hull installations

Buck Algonquin is a fine old brand. But any bronze ball valve should do - just check that the handle is not plated steel. And I agree with @HopCar: you are overthinking it. (I do that too - its OK - just don't let it prevent you from getting on with the job.)

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