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Old 15-04-2016, 20:23   #76
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
..... and people wonder why I always recommend an encapsulated keel to newbies looking for a boat.... Just one more thing to not worry about :>)

Ok, i get it but with this hard of a grounding do you think the encapsulation shell would have survived intact? Would be an equivalent nature repair with wet ballast and poorly fixed laminate. But agree, less risk of keel falling off?...


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Old 15-04-2016, 21:54   #77
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
"Potting" is standard terminology for fitting two parts together with a release on one surface and a high density filler on the other. After curing, the two parts are separated, filler is lightly sanded, and then it is ready for installation. This provides a 100% perfect fit. There are many advantages to this extremely common method, on projects large and small. In this case, only a very thin layer of sealant will exist between ballast keel and stub, due to the perfect fit resulting from potting. And that sealant will be in a perfectly even layer, no gaps at the side, no transverse rocker in the keel stub bottom to allow compression of sealant to let the keel move incrementally laterally. It's just the right way to install stuff. I've never heard anyone use this term for anything else. Certainly not for a final install.

I'm used to using the term "Bedding", for what you're referring to as "Potting". And yeah, the keel normally has a release agent applied to it, & you trowel something like epoxy mixed with milled fibers onto the hull/stub. And then use the hoist to lower the boat down onto the keel. So that everything mates up well. And then you have a couple of options in terms of how to proceed from there. For it's final attachment.

Can you tell us in what capacity you have worked on vessels constructed with pre pregs and the like? Just curious.
Regarding prepregs. I’m no expert, or wizard with them. But you might call it the Senior Apprentice level. And I’ve picked up some experience in a number of ways;
~ As a guest in big shops (with the tooling to use them), for anywhere from a couple of days, to several weeks, when I was the Project Manager/Sailing Master on several vessels. Or was volunteering on unique, once in a lifetime projects.
~ Via being the indispensable guy, in a number of major racing campaigns. Which, coupled with my learning rate being kind of off of the scale. Garners me some unique invitations & opportunities.
~ Plus, over the years, quite a few of my sailing mates have worked in Aerospace. Which afforded the opportunities to use various tooling from time to time. Thus, we could make trick, custom parts for our One-Design, & Box Rule boats.
~ Oh, & in the America’s Cup, structural things were getting destroyed all of the time, so…

And of course some of the team's boatbuilders were flat out, Magicians. And taught while we worked.
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Old 15-04-2016, 22:07   #78
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
Here is a picture that I stare at when this job seems too big, too expensive, too much.

Attachment 122676
Appa is the right lower boat. You can see the inflatable dolphin hanging off her stern. We won that in the Baja HaHa for having the youngest crew member. My daughter was 3 at the time. We also were first overall in our class. For whatever that's worth!����

Attachment 122677
Same bay, same day. The reason for having a boat. Towels hanging all over, kids everywhere in the water, lunch waiting for us whenever we are done swimming and cold beer in the fridge for a sundowner.


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Thanks for sharing (all of this). And as to the boat needing some TLC. They're part of the family, & making lifelong memories. So if they're sick, you try & give'em as much love as you can, so that you can go & make more memories.
Such is my thinking anyway.
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Old 15-04-2016, 22:18   #79
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by Zach View Post
Minaret...

Have a brand for the stitched 12 ounce WR? My primary supplier carries vectorply and PPG, but haven't seen that stuff before.


Orca Composites, IIRC. I had most of a roll in my personal stock. The 1700 too.
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Old 18-04-2016, 06:41   #80
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Re: Keel sump repair

I have an awesome pair of jeans with a permanently sealed fly from my "potting job"... Wire brushing the epoxy into the bright lead before laying the thickened goop... The good news is that I can take a inside curve, or a softball at 60 and keep a smile on my face...

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well I read this topic 6 times and probably re read again a couple of times more, sorry guys but I steal those pictures for my collection, worth in gold!!!!!
I have already stolen them Neil... My copyright attorney say all went smooth and I should begin collecting royalties any day now... Let me know you address when you post them so I know where to send the bill...

I know minaret does this stuff every day, but this really is one of the best illustrated threads of a CRAZY critical job... Pure art...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
Here is a picture that I stare at when this job seems too big, too expensive, too much.

Attachment 122676
Appa is the right lower boat. You can see the inflatable dolphin hanging off her stern. We won that in the Baja HaHa for having the youngest crew member. My daughter was 3 at the time. We also were first overall in our class. For whatever that's worth!😄😄

Attachment 122677
Same bay, same day. The reason for having a boat. Towels hanging all over, kids everywhere in the water, lunch waiting for us whenever we are done swimming and cold beer in the fridge for a sundowner.
Awesome thoughts and pics hooked !!!

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Originally Posted by cpa View Post
Amazing job guys! I found this thread while in tow at the shopping mall. It saved the day.
Oh GAWD... I cannot tell you how much insanity the mobile app has saved while in "shopping tow mode"
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:30   #81
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
I have an awesome pair of jeans with a permanently sealed fly from my "potting job"... Wire brushing the epoxy into the bright lead before laying the thickened goop... The good news is that I can take a inside curve, or a softball at 60 and keep a smile on my face...



I have already stolen them Neil... My copyright attorney say all went smooth and I should begin collecting royalties any day now... Let me know you address when you post them so I know where to send the bill...

I know minaret does this stuff every day, but this really is one of the best illustrated threads of a CRAZY critical job... Pure art...



Awesome thoughts and pics hooked !!!


Oh GAWD... I cannot tell you how much insanity the mobile app has saved while in "shopping tow mode"


Morning Happy! About to go grind more. Interior grind proceeding well. Design is complete in my mind's eye. Making great progress.


I like to do my epoxy potting on the stub side. Then you don't have to worry about things like wire brushing epoxy into lead, or long term bond of epoxy to lead. Here you can see the keel stub post potting. The white filler is WEST/403. We will bed the keel in Sikaflex 291 LOT sealant. Potting means the bolt holes are also perfect. The originals were hogged out dramatically.
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:38   #82
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Re: Keel sump repair

Here's the ballast keel with a release on it.
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:44   #83
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Re: Keel sump repair

Keel all gooped up. I just mixed a bunch of 403 in Extra Slow hardener and slathered it on the top of the keel. Then dropped the boat on top of it, aligned to less than 1/8" tolerance on all data points, and bolted up snug not tight. We measured from various points on the leading and trailing edge to data points like the chainplates on both sides. Alignment is perfect. We did this by adjusting the jack stands while the potting was wet. Hence the Extra Slow. First measurement was over 3 1/2" inches off! Took more than a dozen full turns off on one side of the jack stands with same amount on on the other side. Then tweaking fore and aft. Never seen a ballast keel so perfectly aligned.
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:46   #84
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Re: Keel sump repair

Separation vid.
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:48   #85
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Re: Keel sump repair

Once the keel is installed we'll tape it and fair it. I don't touch the lead until the last minute, at least to the degree that's possible. I don't like working for weeks in a tent contaminated with lead dust. Clean all you want, you'll never get it all.
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Old 19-04-2016, 04:11   #86
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Morning Happy! About to go grind more. Interior grind proceeding well. Design is complete in my mind's eye. Making great progress.


I like to do my epoxy potting on the stub side. Then you don't have to worry about things like wire brushing epoxy into lead, or long term bond of epoxy to lead. Here you can see the keel stub post potting. The white filler is WEST/403. We will bed the keel in Sikaflex 291 LOT sealant. Potting means the bolt holes are also perfect. The originals were hogged out dramatically.
HAHA!!!

That's why you get the big desk minman... And people like me will continue to find ways to do things... albeit somewhat the right way... BUT backwards!

What fantastic way to have an absolute precise "positioning" from this point forward should the keel ever need to come off again.... Highly doubtful unless of course the keel should find a submerged Japanese battleship at speed... Hooked could yank it and snug it while careened and it still would be perfect...

Curious... Will you chamfer out the stud holes to make sealant "O-ring wells"???

And for your enjoyment... An artistic rendering of a little brightened lead before grinding in the epoxy... I call this one "Where was Minman? #68"

I still like my pants though....
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Old 19-04-2016, 12:38   #87
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Keel sump repair

Just got back from the yard. Grrrrrr. If you are sanding something and trying to stay out of the way then get called over to look at something...it is never good.
A guy named Bruno helped build my boat back in 1991. He has great handwriting. I know this because he wrote directions, in French, all over the place. All of this is hidden of course till you start ripping stuff apart. All my thru-hulls have his handwriting letting you know what purpose they serve. Here is a sample...
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Don't sand here, Bruno.
It could be Don't sand here Bruno. Commas. What a difference they can make!
I wish to hell he told the guy wielding the gel coat to cease and desist! That stuff is everywhere and they put fiberglass right over it without prepping it.
The aft fiberglass layup that holds the bulkhead down is done right over gelcoat. There is very little adhesion. Forward of the bulkhead looks ok. There are a bunch of areas that have been gelcoated and shouldn't have been. Thanks Bruno!
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Photo is taken from above and forward of the removed crap, rotted bulkhead. The mast sits on the whiter area. The hole you see is the second most forward keel bolt hole. That area has yet to be grounded out. The dark areas you see that are kinda splotchy in the top right side corner of the pic is gel coat that hasn't been properly removed. It is under the layup and it all has to be grinded away. Where the mast step is and those dark areas, well that is shattered glass from the impact. It is getting grinded and g10 over that after thinned epoxy soaks that area. I think. We are still working some of this through. Insurance ain't paying this damn bill. This is 100% out of pocket. At some point you have to stop grinding and start glassing. All the guys working on the boat have kids and know that I sail almost exclusively with my kids. We will make it strong and safe.
Minaret asked what hull number is this? 3? Nope. Hull 55. Last one. They were pretty sloppy in certain aspects of building my boat. My wauquiez could be considered a better built production boat but a production boat none the less. If I have some questionable build characteristics on my boat, makes you wonder what other production boats have?

Minaret will be posting more later. He is an artist and wants to do before and after with the inside. Which can take awhile. Wait till you see the bulkhead and the condition it was in...


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Old 20-04-2016, 04:45   #88
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Re: Keel sump repair

Frustration aside... It's getting done... And done right...

Far better than would ever need to be...

Hmmm... step location make me wonder about mine which is buried... It's gotta be 1-2' forward of the keel... Weeeeeeeeird....

Oh... and just to make you feel better... Here's a couple pics of my stub sump TWO FEET+ directly under the fuel eater... Every step by feel on the end of "HappySailor Special tool #1387" (read stick with multiple end appendages), 5' of 3/4 extensions, 3/4 uni joint, and a cell phone camera for eyes... click=nope, click=almost, click=damn!, click=oh goodness, click=please thread...

Today will be a better day, and she'll be splashing in short order... Bruno be damned!
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Old 20-04-2016, 20:22   #89
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
HAHA!!!

That's why you get the big desk minman... And people like me will continue to find ways to do things... albeit somewhat the right way... BUT backwards!

What fantastic way to have an absolute precise "positioning" from this point forward should the keel ever need to come off again.... Highly doubtful unless of course the keel should find a submerged Japanese battleship at speed... Hooked could yank it and snug it while careened and it still would be perfect...

Curious... Will you chamfer out the stud holes to make sealant "O-ring wells"???

And for your enjoyment... An artistic rendering of a little brightened lead before grinding in the epoxy... I call this one "Where was Minman? #68"

I still like my pants though....
There's a LOT of Wing to that Keel. Daaamn! I'll bet it's great or when it's time to dry her out though.

As to your "custom" protective trousers. I hope that getting out of them the first time, wasn't too difficult! Particularly if the epoxy had cured prior to your noticing that you had "added some to your wardrobe".
Because it surely can be "interesting" to remove the cured stuff from body hair.
Much as I learned (in a semi-panic) when, at day's end, I found some in my goatee. -> Thank the Heaven's for Baby Oil. As I liked the goatee, & didn't fancy the prospect of shaving it off, due to a boat repair "accident".

I can't even remember where I learned such a "trick", but was glad, both that it came to mind right then, & that it worked. Whew!
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Old 22-04-2016, 05:56   #90
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Re: Keel sump repair

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There's a LOT of Wing to that Keel. Daaamn! I'll bet it's great or when it's time to dry her out though.

It's been rumored the PO was sighted standing with the waterline somewhere about the stub/keel seam....

As to your "custom" protective trousers. I hope that getting out of them the first time, wasn't too difficult! Particularly if the epoxy had cured prior to your noticing that you had "added some to your wardrobe".

Oh I noticed! Epoxy was slung everywhere... Cure rate was on par with the slow hardener utilized for the heat in these parts... Think old ball glove with creases....

Because it surely can be "interesting" to remove the cured stuff from body hair.
Much as I learned (in a semi-panic) when, at day's end, I found some in my goatee. -> Thank the Heaven's for Baby Oil. As I liked the goatee, & didn't fancy the prospect of shaving it off, due to a boat repair "accident".

I can't even remember where I learned such a "trick", but was glad, both that it came to mind right then, & that it worked. Whew!

Used the baby oil trick myself... works a treat... Usually I just let it harden so it looks like I've been wiping my nose with my forearms...
12345!
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