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Old 14-04-2016, 05:36   #61
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Nothing but respect for a client willing to dive in and go there.
INDEED!!!

What is this barrier cream we speak of???

Seems like it would be perfect for the guy who was too lazy to cover up because he thought the next step operation was going to be a short one, but only discovered after that he was woefully incorrect about the duration by orders of magnitude and bare skin was covered yet again in a Lucille Ball like dusting of what wasn't flour but billions of minute particles sharper and more invasive than any substance known to man... After he backs away from the grinder of course...

Oh... and he usually does put on a respirator somewhere after the thought of "crap this is taking too long", 1/3 of the way through ...

----

Nice job guys... Like watching art flow onto the canvas...
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Old 14-04-2016, 06:25   #62
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Re: Keel sump repair

Beautiful work!

I find the Asian plastic mesh washcloths (about $4) work wonders when I just had that little bit of grinding...


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Old 14-04-2016, 08:38   #63
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
INDEED!!!

What is this barrier cream we speak of???

Seems like it would be perfect for the guy who was too lazy to cover up because he thought the next step operation was going to be a short one, but only discovered after that he was woefully incorrect about the duration by orders of magnitude and bare skin was covered yet again in a Lucille Ball like dusting of what wasn't flour but billions of minute particles sharper and more invasive than any substance known to man... After he backs away from the grinder of course...

Oh... and he usually does put on a respirator somewhere after the thought of "crap this is taking too long", 1/3 of the way through ...

----

Nice job guys... Like watching art flow onto the canvas...

Have mentioned it here before. I call it "Tyvek in a tube". There are several brands. Awesome stuff. I'll bathe in it before a big grind.
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Old 14-04-2016, 09:09   #64
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Re: Keel sump repair

Beautiful work guys...
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Old 14-04-2016, 22:40   #65
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Re: Keel sump repair

Hey guys, I know I'm chiming in a little late in this thread, but...
Congrats on the quality work thus far, on a; large, expensive, & messy, surprise job that popped up.
Ugh! I hate it when this kind of thing happens, but you seem to be handling it with aplomb.

I have to say that it’s SO nice to see Mat NOT being used with epoxy. Especially in this application. It seems that sadly, that’s a rather common thing. One which I’ll never really understand…

Ditto on it warming my heart to see a proper set of glass layer patterns mapped out, traced out, made up, & transferred to the many of layers of fabric, used for the repair. As so often, people just wing it when doing a patch job. Not fully understanding the importance of the proper width of bond line for each sequential layer. Or that such things do actually need to be measured, & diagramed.
That, plus, again, kudos to you guys taking the time to cut out, label, & prepare, each layer of reinforcement, prior to the beginning of the job.
BRAVO, on the professionalism with that too.

I’m also impressed by how much laminate, per wet out, that you were able to apply with good layup quality. While working inverted. All of it, without resorting to vacuum bagging. As 5mm in one go (& in places, much more) is quite a bit to be applying upside down… Given that it works out to around 3lb/sqft+. For each of the 3 layups.
So, Shiny, Pretty, Shower caps, all around!

That said, I was hoping that you might kind enough fielding some questions on several specific points of the repairs. So that, in the process of answering them, you'll enhance my (& others) boat repair IQ.
BTW, Please don’t at all, regard them as criticisms.

~ I’m curious as to why (it seems) that no grinding was done on the keel stub’s interior. If for no other reason than to inspect everything in there for damage too. Or perhaps I missed such?
But with such severe cracking & damage as seen on the outside, I’d be concerned with damage to the hull’s inside as well. And would want to check, in order to be certain.

~ By chance, was the option of filling in/leveling out (with extra laminate), a bit more of the surface area in the vicinity of the heads of the keel bolts considered? So that larger backing plates could be used this time around?

New Topic/Line of Questions
First; obviously, this repair is FAR, Far stronger than the boat’s original construction was, given the way which you’ve re-built things. But I’m curious to know some of the “why's” behind certain parts of the repair. If you'd be kind enough to explain them, that is

Specifically:
~ Why was the choice made to alternate layers of Woven Roving (WR), with Axials for the repair? Versus say, using only (stitched) Axials for the entire fix? And I ask this for several reasons;
- A primary one is that the two materials carry loads in much different manners from one another (as I understand it). So what’s the thinking in order to get them to work synergistically together? If, indeed, one can. Especially given that alternated layers sequence.
I'd run it through VectorPly or similar, but I ain't seen my copy of said program in quite a while.
- Also, thickness for thickness, or pound for pound, Axials are stronger than WR. So again, why the mixture of the two? As I know that Axials aren't exactly costly, relatively speaking.
- Plus, Axials tend to stack together more smoothly, than do many/most laminates made with WR. Barring using Mat between the layers of WR, & then vacuum bagging things. Non?
It's just pretty much a dictate of the geometry of the construction of the different fabric types.

And bagging laminates (of any type) also further improves their physical characteristics. So, was doing this entertained at all?.
Perhaps you guys ruled it out as being too far into the overkill range?

But even without vacuum bagging, the tighter together that the layers of a laminate are, the stronger it is. Which again, by my thinking, would give the nod to Axials. Particularly when in a weight per area comparison, Axials are denser (read stronger) than is WR. That, & they just plain old have superior Physical Properties.
-->Ergo, some of my befuddlement & queries.

~ With regard to the keel bolts, did you guys do any type of NDT on them? If so, what? And if not, why not?

I ask, as they’ve obviously taken quite the beating over the years. Between the grounding(s). And then especially, the millions of flexing cycles which they’ve endured, with the keel swing back & forth like that for many years. Given the gap that it had to move around in; between the keel top, & the bottom of the stub.


~ Also, what process(es), & materials, did you guys use to be the keel?

So...Thanks for listening to my insatiable curiosity, & mild OCD That, & of course Good Luck with the rest of this job. As well as the others on your To Do list!

PS: I've got one other anti-itching recipe, besides cold showers, for those new to working with the stuff.
Basically, you "tape off" your skin at the end of the day, & or if you get to itching. And by "tape off", I mean; Using tape with a high adhesion factor, to remove the tiny glass particles from your skin.
Much like you do with masking tape, to remove dust & lint particles, when wearing dark colored dress clothing. As the final step in "shining yourself up", before heading out the door.
[/COLOR]
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Old 15-04-2016, 00:12   #66
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Hey guys, I know I'm chiming in a little late in this thread, but...
Congrats on the quality work thus far, on a; large, expensive, & messy, surprise job that popped up.
Ugh! I hate it when this kind of thing happens, but you seem to be handling it with aplomb.



Thanks! All part of the job, I'm sure you know how often this sort of thing happens. It's rare you pull a keel on a boat of this vintage and find nothing.



I have to say that it’s SO nice to see Mat NOT being used with epoxy. Especially in this application. It seems that sadly, that’s a rather common thing. One which I’ll never really understand…


Agreed! I don't get it either. If your gonna shell out for epoxy, do it right!




Ditto on it warming my heart to see a proper set of glass layer patterns mapped out, traced out, made up, & transferred to the many of layers of fabric, used for the repair. As so often, people just wing it when doing a patch job. Not fully understanding the importance of the proper width of bond line for each sequential layer. Or that such things do actually need to be measured, & diagramed.
That, plus, again, kudos to you guys taking the time to cut out, label, & prepare, each layer of reinforcement, prior to the beginning of the job.
BRAVO, on the professionalism with that too.


Thanks again. Many just don't know the difference. It's challenging when your client base doesn't really know what they are paying for. Which no one who hasn't done this for a living would, of course. But the differences between this sort of top shelf repair and something more, shall we say, common, are not immediately evident to the uninitiated. We approached planning this keel repair holistically; ie, we didn't spot repair damage, we rebuilt the entire thing.

I’m also impressed by how much laminate, per wet out, that you were able to apply with good layup quality. While working inverted. All of it, without resorting to vacuum bagging. As 5mm in one go (& in places, much more) is quite a bit to be applying upside down… Given that it works out to around 3lb/sqft+. For each of the 3 layups.
So, Shiny, Pretty, Shower caps, all around!


I have done a whole lot of this. More than most could imagine. This is exactly the sort of repair many would be afraid to approach without a vacuum bag, for exactly that reason.




That said, I was hoping that you might kind enough fielding some questions on several specific points of the repairs. So that, in the process of answering them, you'll enhance my (& others) boat repair IQ.
BTW, Please don’t at all, regard them as criticisms.



That is my purpose here!




~ I’m curious as to why (it seems) that no grinding was done on the keel stub’s interior. If for no other reason than to inspect everything in there for damage too. Or perhaps I missed such?
But with such severe cracking & damage as seen on the outside, I’d be concerned with damage to the hull’s inside as well. And would want to check, in order to be certain.


This job ain't done yet! Just too busy making forward progress to post here. It's spring, and this is far from my only job right now. The pictures of the OP covered in grinding dust are the result of his being de-virginized in the grinding realm. He started interior grinding, I let him use my safety gear and grinders to go to town in there for two days. Tomorrow I dive into finishing corner grinding in there, and cutting out the main bulkhead. I'll take lots of pics, but probably be too exhausted to post on it (again).



~ By chance, was the option of filling in/leveling out (with extra laminate), a bit more of the surface area in the vicinity of the heads of the keel bolts considered? So that larger backing plates could be used this time around?


Basic rundown of the plan:the 1/2" ply seen in some of the pics as "backing plates" on our potting bolt up are to give us a measurement of how much thread remains on each keel bolt when bolted through the new 1/2" G10 floor plates. This will be full size in the floor of each sump, touching either side wall of the keel sump and bonded in place. Then they will be heavily glassed in place, tying in to the hull on the side walls of the sump, and into the grid liner everywhere else. The interior laminate will be applied therefore to a thickness which leaves us just enough thread on each bolt to bolt it all up and torque with only a couple of threads sticking out. Previous hull thickness was 1 1/4" with typical 1/8' or so steel backing plates. New hull thickness in the floor of the stub will grow by approximately 1", ie 1/2" G10 and 1/2" new laminate. The main bulkhead, which is broken and delaminated, will be cut out on the bottom half and replaced with solid G10 1/2", heavily glassed in to the hull, grid liner, and the top half of the original bulkhead. The bulkhead removal will also allow us to make the two forward "sumps" in the grid liner into one, as it were. So this area will have a single G10 plate with four keel bolts going through the aft end of it, the mast step just forward of that, the new G10 bulkhead glassed to it directly forward of that, and then the two forward keel bolts; all on one plate of G10. You'll have a cow when I post pics of the glory!




New Topic/Line of Questions
First; obviously, this repair is FAR, Far stronger than the boat’s original construction was, given the way which you’ve re-built things. But I’m curious to know some of the “why's” behind certain parts of the repair. If you'd be kind enough to explain them, that is


Always happy to do so!



Specifically:
~ Why was the choice made to alternate layers of Woven Roving (WR), with Axials for the repair? Versus say, using only (stitched) Axials for the entire fix? And I ask this for several reasons;
- A primary one is that the two materials carry loads in much different manners from one another (as I understand it). So what’s the thinking in order to get them to work synergistically together? If, indeed, one can. Especially given that alternated layers sequence.
I'd run it through VectorPly or similar, but I ain't seen my copy of said program in quite a while.
- Also, thickness for thickness, or pound for pound, Axials are stronger than WR. So again, why the mixture of the two? As I know that Axials aren't exactly costly, relatively speaking.
- Plus, Axials tend to stack together more smoothly, than do many/most laminates made with WR. Barring using Mat between the layers of WR, & then vacuum bagging things. Non?
It's just pretty much a dictate of the geometry of the construction of the different fabric types.


That is a stitched WR, for guaranteed fiber orientation. This method provides a laminate with fiber orientation that goes in all directions. This makes for a much stronger layup. If you look carefully at the keel radius, due to the way we cut the pattern, you will see 0/90 fibers crossing the radius at a right angle and going longitudinally, as well as fibers crossing on the bias. This makes a big difference in laminate quality. I've done a lot of high end vacuum bagging, carbon/epoxy construction, etc etc. This is how we built the Synergy line, how we built Cascadia (Carl Schumacher, designer), and all sorts of other very high end boats you'd be familiar with. It's how high end chemical engineers spec a laminate, IMHE. Alternating 0/90 fiber orientation with 45/45. It provides the most strength in all directions, for a structural layup without any special purpose, for which we would usually got to a uni.




And bagging laminates (of any type) also further improves their physical characteristics. So, was doing this entertained at all?.
Perhaps you guys ruled it out as being too far into the overkill range?


It was discussed. Throwing out ballpark figures: I have often field burn tested my own layups for resin ratio, both bagged and hand laminated. Very high end bagged layups, which have had the perf dialed in for current conditions and everything, tend to run about 35/65, which is max leanness. Much leaner than this and the layup actually gets weaker instead of stronger. When I field burn test my best hand lams, they tend to run about 40/60, or 5% more resin. This would probably not be true for a less conscientious laminator, but it's my average. Therefore, I figure my bagged layup is approximately 5-10% stronger than my hand lam. However, bagging at least doubles the time and materials cost of an already expensive large layup. Therefore, it doesn't add up on a large structural layup like this, unless money is no object. If it must be maximally thin, light weight, and strong, ie new construction, then bag away by all means. In this case it makes much more sense for the owners wallet to simply remove a few more layers of original laminate and apply a few more of hand lam to get the necessary strength, instead of bagging. Which is what we did. The external layup was done in three applications, these took three partial days, approximately 12 man hrs each, two mean for six hrs per. Bagging would have easily doubled or tripled these hours, not to mention the materials expense. Just not worth it, if you know what you're doing.






But even without vacuum bagging, the tighter together that the layers of a laminate are, the stronger it is. Which again, by my thinking, would give the nod to Axials. Particularly when in a weight per area comparison, Axials are denser (read stronger) than is WR. That, & they just plain old have superior Physical Properties.
-->Ergo, some of my befuddlement & queries.


This is a statement I would not agree with. There are many different types of WR; the 1200 we used here is amazing stuff. Definitely a denser weave than the DB. But with nice coarse tows. Bomber stuff. You also get a much nicer finish if the last ply in each layup is a 1200 WR instead of a DB, because of the tighter weave. Way easier to peel ply.





~ With regard to the keel bolts, did you guys do any type of NDT on them? If so, what? And if not, why not?

I ask, as they’ve obviously taken quite the beating over the years. Between the grounding(s). And then especially, the millions of flexing cycles which they’ve endured, with the keel swing back & forth like that for many years. Given the gap that it had to move around in; between the keel top, & the bottom of the stub.



Sure we did! It got the Mark I eyeball, after wire brushing. Based on having peered at many a keel bolt, this looks fine. Far more wastage on the area exposed to bilge water than anywhere else. They ring like a bell when you hit them with a ball peen. NDT completed! Yet again, we could waste a bunch of the OP's money on more expensive methods, but they will just confirm what I've told him. I've been down this path many times.



~ Also, what process(es), & materials, did you guys use to be the keel?


Keel not bedded on yet. We are bonding in the interior G10 plates and glassing them in first, then we install the ballast keel, then we do exterior fairing and coating, then we splash.


So...Thanks for listening to my insatiable curiosity, & mild OCD That, & of course Good Luck with the rest of this job. As well as the others on your To Do list!


Happy to oblige!

PS: I've got one other anti-itching recipe, besides cold showers, for those new to working with the stuff.
Basically, you "tape off" your skin at the end of the day, & or if you get to itching. And by "tape off", I mean; Using tape with a high adhesion factor, to remove the tiny glass particles from your skin.
Much like you do with masking tape, to remove dust & lint particles, when wearing dark colored dress clothing. As the final step in "shining yourself up", before heading out the door.
[/COLOR]

Your final method is what we call the "Brazilian". I only use it when I've failed to barrier cream, blown a seal, and am desperately itchy. In that case, yes, rub duct tape on your skin and jerk it off till it bleeds! Personally, I need to be grinding carbon to get that itchy.
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Old 15-04-2016, 02:14   #67
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
INDEED!!!

What is this barrier cream we speak of???

Seems like it would be perfect for the guy who was too lazy to cover up because he thought the next step operation was going to be a short one, but only discovered after that he was woefully incorrect about the duration by orders of magnitude and bare skin was covered yet again in a Lucille Ball like dusting of what wasn't flour but billions of minute particles sharper and more invasive than any substance known to man... After he backs away from the grinder of course...

Oh... and he usually does put on a respirator somewhere after the thought of "crap this is taking too long", 1/3 of the way through ...

----

Nice job guys... Like watching art flow onto the canvas...

Amazon.com: Hand-E-Glove Hand Protective Lotion, 16 oz. - EEP-102-16: Health & Personal Care


This one's pretty good. I'm using another right now that might be a little better for heavy grinding, but it's also really greasy and heavily scented. Don't remember the brand right now. SBS rawks but is $$.
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Old 15-04-2016, 02:48   #68
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Your final method is what we call the "Brazilian". I only use it when I've failed to barrier cream, blown a seal, and am desperately itchy. In that case, yes, rub duct tape on your skin and jerk it off till it bleeds! Personally, I need to be grinding carbon to get that itchy.
Speaking of “Brazilians”. The other option, besides, or in addition to Duct Tape, is to use the Shopvac to give yourself a good going over several times a day. Both clothed, & non. That, & one more in depth pass with it at day’s end, just prior to your cold shower.

Funnin aside: Thanks for the detailed reply to my post. And there’s little that you mentioned, as far as techniques or terminology, which I haven’t used before. So for the most part you’re preaching to the choir.
I’ve worked on a good number of boats. Some of them quite "interesting" in their construction. Like the IACC boats. Where they had Carbon Fiber skins, with Aluminum Honeycomb cores. Thus, BIG problems, if you don’t do the build/repair right.
So, yeah, I get what you’re talking about.

And in a note to the (kind & gracious) OP, Hooked, I wrote:

“I've gotta' say, I would have been REALLY interested to be a participant in the conversations between you & Minaret (plus the other, unseen, assistants), when you were discussing how to do things, from start to finish. Including all of the various options which you considered, as well as were forced to contend with.
Looks like a great job though!

I've built & rebuilt a good number of stock, & semi-custom/custom boats, & one of the parts which I love, is all of the things which you learn along the way; materials, tools, techniques, & especially people. The ones who you "just happen" to meet at the right time, who step up & help you out with things which have you 6-ways cross-eyed, sans expecting anything in return.

But I especially value the "thinking chair" sessions.
Where everyone puts their heads together to figure out what the desired outcome(s) may be, & the various routes to take in order to get there. Especially as I've been lucky enough to work with/get to know some of the top guys in the industry, & sailing in general.

A "thinking chair" is where the boat gets "built" (or fixed) from; in that before you go to order parts, or break out the tools. You run through the project, & how to build/fix it several times, & in various different ways in your mind, first.

And on bigger projects, this happens in a group setting of course.”


--> When the term Woven Roving has been used in the thread, to me, the implication was that you were using the kind of reinforcement which was popular in boats built from about the time when fiberglass was first used in boats, until well into this century, in some circles.

The type of material where heavy tows of glass are literally woven over & under one another, much like most glass cloth. And you wind up with a reinforcement which is very thick, but has an Enormous amount of unfilled spaces in it, due to the bulk of the tows used in the weave.

And compared to axials, the stuff has a lot of downsides. Such as the gigantic amount of resin that it takes in order to fill things in. So that you wind up with a laminate with a very low fiber/resin ratio. Unlike the numbers which you stated. Which are impressively high BTW, & definitely in the opposite direction of an old school WR layup.

So, I’m thinking that there was simply a materials terminology glitch, when you guys discussed using WR before.
As it now sounds as if you’re using a 0/90 stitched bonded material (essentially an Axial), which isn’t in fact woven (roving) at all.
And that makes a WHOLE lot more sense. Plus, it’s the only way that you could achieve the fiber/resin ratios which you’re describing.



Also, it’s REALLY good to know, that you guys will be TCB on the interior of the boat, structurally speaking. Because when "Potting The Keel" was spoken of, it gave me the impression that you guys were thinking that the keel repair was about don.
As “Potting” (to me, & a good number of others) means that you’re mounting the keel, & pouring resin around the bolts, in their holes. To bond things in place, & also to seal them.
Which rules out doing any more grinding or laminating inside. Ergo, my cause for concern. And the reasoning behind some of what I wrote earlier.

Plus, obviously, it’s good that you guys are tying together the whole interior structural framework. Including the keel floors & grid, the major bulkhead(s), & of course, the mast step.
I’d been wondering about that one too.



BTW, with regards to bagging, resin ratios, & entrapped air content. I’ve read some literature which states that for every 1% of extra entrapped air in a laminate, it’s 10% weaker.
And while I haven’t seen the actual testing, it’s definitely incentive to get as much air (& resin) out of a laminate as possible… down to that set point which you mentioned.

Which is why Prepregs, & things like SP Systems SPRINT products are very popular in some circles/types of construction.
Plus, many of the boats which I’ve worked on have been the higher end, ultra weight-conscious types. And or, were built with super high fiber content percentages to begin with. So you have to match up the repair/modification characteristics (in All manners) to match that of the original (laminate) design/construction.

Regarding the keel bolt question(s). I can’t say as I have the level of experience to “test” them like you did. And for me, they’re one of those areas where it pays to be a bit paranoid. Especially as with some alloys, damage is hard to ascertain, barring X-raying things. And other similar, Pricey, tests.]
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Old 15-04-2016, 06:30   #69
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Amazon.com: Hand-E-Glove Hand Protective Lotion, 16 oz. - EEP-102-16: Health & Personal Care


This one's pretty good. I'm using another right now that might be a little better for heavy grinding, but it's also really greasy and heavily scented. Don't remember the brand right now. SBS rawks but is $$.
I've used several styles of this in the past for general dirty work... I used to be a dealer wrench in my youth... I have once again proved that I'm too mentally challenged to conjure original thought with previous knowledge...

THANKS MINMAN!!!
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Old 15-04-2016, 08:46   #70
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Speaking of “Brazilians”. The other option, besides, or in addition to Duct Tape, is to use the Shopvac to give yourself a good going over several times a day. Both clothed, & non. That, & one more in depth pass with it at day’s end, just prior to your cold shower.

Funnin aside: Thanks for the detailed reply to my post. And there’s little that you mentioned, as far as techniques or terminology, which I haven’t used before. So for the most part you’re preaching to the choir.
I’ve worked on a good number of boats. Some of them quite "interesting" in their construction. Like the IACC boats. Where they had Carbon Fiber skins, with Aluminum Honeycomb cores. Thus, BIG problems, if you don’t do the build/repair right.
So, yeah, I get what you’re talking about.

And in a note to the (kind & gracious) OP, Hooked, I wrote:

“I've gotta' say, I would have been REALLY interested to be a participant in the conversations between you & Minaret (plus the other, unseen, assistants), when you were discussing how to do things, from start to finish. Including all of the various options which you considered, as well as were forced to contend with.
Looks like a great job though!

I've built & rebuilt a good number of stock, & semi-custom/custom boats, & one of the parts which I love, is all of the things which you learn along the way; materials, tools, techniques, & especially people. The ones who you "just happen" to meet at the right time, who step up & help you out with things which have you 6-ways cross-eyed, sans expecting anything in return.

But I especially value the "thinking chair" sessions.
Where everyone puts their heads together to figure out what the desired outcome(s) may be, & the various routes to take in order to get there. Especially as I've been lucky enough to work with/get to know some of the top guys in the industry, & sailing in general.

A "thinking chair" is where the boat gets "built" (or fixed) from; in that before you go to order parts, or break out the tools. You run through the project, & how to build/fix it several times, & in various different ways in your mind, first.

And on bigger projects, this happens in a group setting of course.”


--> When the term Woven Roving has been used in the thread, to me, the implication was that you were using the kind of reinforcement which was popular in boats built from about the time when fiberglass was first used in boats, until well into this century, in some circles.

The type of material where heavy tows of glass are literally woven over & under one another, much like most glass cloth. And you wind up with a reinforcement which is very thick, but has an Enormous amount of unfilled spaces in it, due to the bulk of the tows used in the weave.

And compared to axials, the stuff has a lot of downsides. Such as the gigantic amount of resin that it takes in order to fill things in. So that you wind up with a laminate with a very low fiber/resin ratio. Unlike the numbers which you stated. Which are impressively high BTW, & definitely in the opposite direction of an old school WR layup.

So, I’m thinking that there was simply a materials terminology glitch, when you guys discussed using WR before.
As it now sounds as if you’re using a 0/90 stitched bonded material (essentially an Axial), which isn’t in fact woven (roving) at all.
And that makes a WHOLE lot more sense. Plus, it’s the only way that you could achieve the fiber/resin ratios which you’re describing.



Also, it’s REALLY good to know, that you guys will be TCB on the interior of the boat, structurally speaking. Because when "Potting The Keel" was spoken of, it gave me the impression that you guys were thinking that the keel repair was about don.
As “Potting” (to me, & a good number of others) means that you’re mounting the keel, & pouring resin around the bolts, in their holes. To bond things in place, & also to seal them.
Which rules out doing any more grinding or laminating inside. Ergo, my cause for concern. And the reasoning behind some of what I wrote earlier.

Plus, obviously, it’s good that you guys are tying together the whole interior structural framework. Including the keel floors & grid, the major bulkhead(s), & of course, the mast step.
I’d been wondering about that one too.



BTW, with regards to bagging, resin ratios, & entrapped air content. I’ve read some literature which states that for every 1% of extra entrapped air in a laminate, it’s 10% weaker.
And while I haven’t seen the actual testing, it’s definitely incentive to get as much air (& resin) out of a laminate as possible… down to that set point which you mentioned.

Which is why Prepregs, & things like SP Systems SPRINT products are very popular in some circles/types of construction.
Plus, many of the boats which I’ve worked on have been the higher end, ultra weight-conscious types. And or, were built with super high fiber content percentages to begin with. So you have to match up the repair/modification characteristics (in All manners) to match that of the original (laminate) design/construction.

Regarding the keel bolt question(s). I can’t say as I have the level of experience to “test” them like you did. And for me, they’re one of those areas where it pays to be a bit paranoid. Especially as with some alloys, damage is hard to ascertain, barring X-raying things. And other similar, Pricey, tests.]


No glitch there, and nothing "axial" about it. Thats a 1200 woven roving, and the tows are woven just as you suggest. They just happen to be stitched in place as well, and have a very tight weave as well as coarse tows. There are hundreds of different types of rovings and biax, for hundreds of different purposes. Woven roving is very much alive and well. One of the primary reasons is that drape on biax is terrible. And that, as I said, every respected chemical engineer I've ever worked with designs laminates with both it and biax in it. The WR you refer to is a 2400. Very coarse, loose weave. Totally has a place in modern construction, I use it often.That very coarse weave is there to increase drape, ie the ability of the fabric to rack to allow it to conform to complex compound curves. Stitched materials cannot do this.


"Potting" is standard terminology for fitting two parts together with a release on one surface and a high density filler on the other. After curing, the two parts are separated, filler is lightly sanded, and then it is ready for installation. This provides a 100% perfect fit. There are many advantages to this extremely common method, on projects large and small. In this case, only a very thin layer of sealant will exist between ballast keel and stub, due to the perfect fit resulting from potting. And that sealant will be in a perfectly even layer, no gaps at the side, no transverse rocker in the keel stub bottom to allow compression of sealant to let the keel move incrementally laterally. It's just the right way to install stuff. I've never heard anyone use this term for anything else. Certainly not for a final install.


Can you tell us in what capacity you have worked on vessels constructed with pre pregs and the like? Just curious.
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Old 15-04-2016, 10:51   #71
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Re: Keel sump repair

Minaret...

Have a brand for the stitched 12 ounce WR? My primary supplier carries vectorply and PPG, but haven't seen that stuff before.
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Old 15-04-2016, 11:45   #72
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Re: Keel sump repair

Well I read this topic 6 times and probably re read again a couple of times more, sorry guys but I steal those pictures for my collection, worth in gold!!!!!
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Old 15-04-2016, 13:58   #73
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Re: Keel sump repair

I had school today so no grinding for me. However...
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Minaret and his partner in grind are hard at it.
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That dust gets everywhere!

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The stub is more or less done. I think.

Minaret will post more pictures later.
Thanks for the comments!


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Old 15-04-2016, 14:08   #74
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Re: Keel sump repair

Here is a picture that I stare at when this job seems too big, too expensive, too much.

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Appa is the right lower boat. You can see the inflatable dolphin hanging off her stern. We won that in the Baja HaHa for having the youngest crew member. My daughter was 3 at the time. We also were first overall in our class. For whatever that's worth!😄😄

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Same bay, same day. The reason for having a boat. Towels hanging all over, kids everywhere in the water, lunch waiting for us whenever we are done swimming and cold beer in the fridge for a sundowner.


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Old 15-04-2016, 19:58   #75
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Re: Keel sump repair

Amazing job guys! I found this thread while in tow at the shopping mall. It saved the day.
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