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Old 15-11-2015, 20:44   #31
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
Agree that it's not holding anything now so deal with it. So, Hamburking--are those stainless or bronze Jbolts or through bolted on the C&C25?
I have owned 3 C&C boats, and sailed many more. My understanding is that the keel has stainless steel bolts, set into the cast when the lead is poured. I don't know if they are J shaped or straight. As far as I know, there is no way to access, view, or determine the condition of the bolts without dropping the keel. Locally, we have freshwater, so corrosion damage to the keelbolts is rare. However, the washers and nuts often show corrosion after 40 years in the bilge.

The smaller C&C boats, like the 24, 25, 27, and 29 sell these days for under $10,000 cdn. So dropping the keel to inspect the bolts would likely cost more than the entire boat is worth, especially on the 24 and 25. I have never heard of a catastrophic failure of the keelbolts on a C&C. My impression is that for the smaller boats, they are incredibly overbuilt, using only slightly smaller hardware than their bigger cousins. I would hope there would be indications like flex cracking at the keel to hull join, long before any failure.

The 25 was a very popular model, a big boat for a 25 with a solid feel and excellent sailing performance. Most have had some water intrusion into the deck core over time, but is pretty straightforward to repair. Due to the age, the original standing rigging should have been replaced by now. An awful lot of 25s also have reworked mast steps, usually due to damage from pulling the stick for winter. The transom hung rudder is totally sealed below the waterline, making the rudder quite robust and long lived, although the pintles/gudgeons will likely be sloppy and need replacing. The outboard motor version (most common) allows a modern 4 stroke engine to be installed with no trouble at all, although the 4 strokes are heavier than the design weight of a 2 stroke. A 9.9hp is common, although a 7.5hp will suffice. The benefit of being under 10hp in canada is that the boat does not need to be licensed or registered, simplifying buying/selling, and saving on sales tax. I had no trouble crossing back and forth into the USA from Canada with no ownership documents other than the hull serial number. My one complaint is that the original jiffy reefing system on the main, popular on many of the C&C boats of the early 70's is cumbersome. A simpler slab reefing system, adopted in the later 70's was a big improvement. And with a draft of only 3'10", this boat can go just about anywhere.

Good, clean, well equipped examples of the 25 can easily be found for under $5000 cdn. And bare boats often come up for $1000 cdn. It represents a tremendous value in a sail boat which I would not hesitate to recommend, especially for families with young children.
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Old 15-11-2015, 23:12   #32
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

h--good post.
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Old 16-11-2015, 13:02   #33
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Good info bit id always favor a thorough cleaning of the area first and a bit of on/of to removesuperficial corrosion and mung. No smile no leak no seepage....back it off and re-analyze the area below the intact washer...was it a collar bushing? In any clean it up dry it set new stainless vushing or washers to make full contact and tighten snuggly do not get too energetic! Nice boat enjoy it..

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Old 16-11-2015, 13:10   #34
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

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Originally Posted by waterdancer View Post
Hi folks
On my C&C 25 the lower washers under one keel bolt are totally rusted out. It is literally in crumbles in the bilge. (There were 2, the upper one seems fine)
So there is a large gap where the washer was. So the nut/upper washer is sitting on this crumbled piece of rust at about 1/4 of the area. That is what is left from the lower washer.

I would like to take the nut off, scrape away the rusty washer, put on a bed oh 5200 and a few new washers and tighten it again.
Just one nut. The boat is currently not taking in any water and has no smile.

Some say I should not do it in the water, many say as long as it is just one, it is no problem
Any words of wisdom ?
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Old 16-11-2015, 13:16   #35
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Don't use stainless nuts and washers unless the stud is also stainless.
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Old 16-11-2015, 13:52   #36
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Don't use stainless nuts and washers unless the stud is also stainless.
I've been advised that using bronze nuts and washers is better even on stainless studs-above water. Largely because the combo won't gall/seize up. If it's sitting in the water (is the bilge wet?) matched metals makes sense.
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Old 16-11-2015, 16:05   #37
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

If you use 'Never Seize' when you re-install the SS nuts they won't gall. Usually no problem mixing SS and Bronze above the water line or in the interior.
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Old 17-11-2015, 06:18   #38
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
But doesnt the shiny bit on top look gold-colored? Or is this another 'is the dress blue or gold' internet sensation....

Isnt anyone concerned with what looks like weird damage in that second picture?
Yea... I think it's like you say... SS takes on a yellowish/gold/orange tint when it's stained... Not really "Stainless" as in devoid of staining but "Stain-Less"!

Are talking about the one where the keel is off and the studs are "hourglass" corroded???? This is why it's recommended to pull the keel if there's been an extended leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599 View Post
If that were MY boat, I would definitely do as Stumble recommended,

- Quote: "First, if you have a rust problem in your keel bolts you need to drop the keel and find out what's going on, not just replace a bad washer. It may be nothing, but you could be looking at the leading edge of a major problem. There is no way to know without disassembly." - end quote.

This absolutely the proper course.... AND I am a HUGE proponent of dropping keels for inspection... But...
1. It's been reported that there's no leaking, smile, weeping...
2. Cost/benefit/net worth is a major factor
3. Obviously you can't put a price one safety though...
4. Anything done is better than nothing done...


That is a nasty looking situation and I would definitely want to know for sure if the studs are solid or corroded, and take the necessary action to correct the problem. As others have said, there are too many possibilities of further damage or disaster doing it any other way.

Not that I classify myself as an expert, but I would NOT identify these as "bolts" ... I would refer to them as STUDS ... My reason for doing so is because BOLTS have a head on them and we are looking at the opposite end of the bolt if that were the case, and what we see in the photo makes me think they are threaded into the keel ... however, I will bend to other opinions, only IF you can explain HOW the head of a BOLT is attached to the keel???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599 View Post
Yes, Terra Nova, they could be J-bolts, which would make them just about impossible to remove or change ... do you know of any boat builder of repute, or have you ever seen J-bolts used for keel attachment?
The majority of boats with lead keels utilize J-bolts
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Old 17-11-2015, 08:58   #39
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

It should be pointed out that replacing J bolts isn't technically that difficult. It's a royal pain, but not awfully. You just melt away a channel of lead following the bolt untilyoucan slide it out, replace the bolt, then weld new lead (reusing what you melted away) back in place.

Yard prices vary a lot, but somewhere around $200/bolt is what I was quoted last time I looked into it.


Sending the keel to MARS is certainly the Cadillac option, and their labor is pretty reasonably priced, but the shipping can quickly add to the cost of the repair.
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Old 17-11-2015, 12:34   #40
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
It should be pointed out that replacing J bolts isn't technically that difficult. It's a royal pain, but not awfully. You just melt away a channel of lead following the bolt untilyoucan slide it out, replace the bolt, then weld new lead (reusing what you melted away) back in place.

Yard prices vary a lot, but somewhere around $200/bolt is what I was quoted last time I looked into it.


Sending the keel to MARS is certainly the Cadillac option, and their labor is pretty reasonably priced, but the shipping can quickly add to the cost of the repair.
I get the picture and lead melts at a very low temp...$200/bolt seems like a great deal unless you can't do it with the keel on the boat...then not so great because dropping the keel is a lot o work. Also, whilst my keel is un-encapsulated lead just bolted to the bottom of the boat, not many are that way--so what about damage/heat with the fiberglass around the lead keel? This isn't seeming to be so intuitively easy or cheap.
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Old 18-11-2015, 05:57   #41
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
I get the picture and lead melts at a very low temp...$200/bolt seems like a great deal unless you can't do it with the keel on the boat...then not so great because dropping the keel is a lot o work. Also, whilst my keel is un-encapsulated lead just bolted to the bottom of the boat, not many are that way--so what about damage/heat with the fiberglass around the lead keel? This isn't seeming to be so intuitively easy or cheap.
You must drop the keel to replace J-bolts in lead...

You can sister in place...

A LARGE percentage of boats with lead keels are not encapsulated ...
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Old 18-11-2015, 06:38   #42
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

"The keel is fastened to the bottom of the yacht by means of stainless steel bolts which are cast into the lead. These bolts extend throught the bottom of the boat and a secured by means of stainless steel nuts and washers. The bolts are bedded in Tremco Semkit two part sealant and epoxy where they project"

From my C&C 25 mk1 owners manual. Don't know if this clears anything up Don't really say if they are J-bolts but I would assume they are being "cast into the lead"
I have the entire original manual if you would like to know anything else, LOL still have the factory warrenty card...Got lucky and bought a boat from one of "those" owners, was actually shopping for a 27 but couldn't pass this one up. Came with every receipt going back to day 1.
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Old 18-11-2015, 07:50   #43
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
I get the picture and lead melts at a very low temp...$200/bolt seems like a great deal unless you can't do it with the keel on the boat...then not so great because dropping the keel is a lot o work. Also, whilst my keel is un-encapsulated lead just bolted to the bottom of the boat, not many are that way--so what about damage/heat with the fiberglass around the lead keel? This isn't seeming to be so intuitively easy or cheap.
Dropping a keel is a pretty easy process. We used to do it every few months on the Andrews I worked for. For a trailor sailor it's even easier.

1) put boat on trailer
2) take down mast
3) unbolt the keel
4) break sealant bead if any
5) travel lift picks the boat up and moves it to be blocked

The keel is now left sitting on the trailer and exposed.

On the Andrews 70 it was a bit tricky because the keels were so deep they had to be swapped out inside a pit, which required multiple moves just to get everything in place, and at least two picks from a rental crane and the travel lift to move everything around.

Our workflow

1) haul boat position the keel in the pit
2) 115' mast off (rental crane)
3) unbolt keel
4) travel lift to move boat 20' away
5) travel lift picks up old keel, moves it to keel storage
6) travel lift picks up new keel, drops it in the pit
7) travel lift picks up boat, places it over the keel
8) sealant, then bolt keel on
9) 24 hours for sealant to cure
10) mast back in place (rental crane)
11) launch

Start to finish it took us three days.
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Old 18-11-2015, 11:17   #44
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Dropping a keel is a pretty easy process. We used to do it every few months on the Andrews I worked for. For a trailor sailor it's even easier.

1) put boat on trailer
2) take down mast
3) unbolt the keel
4) break sealant bead if any
5) travel lift picks the boat up and moves it to be blocked

The keel is now left sitting on the trailer and exposed.

On the Andrews 70 it was a bit tricky because the keels were so deep they had to be swapped out inside a pit, which required multiple moves just to get everything in place, and at least two picks from a rental crane and the travel lift to move everything around.

Our workflow

1) haul boat position the keel in the pit
2) 115' mast off (rental crane)
3) unbolt keel
4) travel lift to move boat 20' away
5) travel lift picks up old keel, moves it to keel storage
6) travel lift picks up new keel, drops it in the pit
7) travel lift picks up boat, places it over the keel
8) sealant, then bolt keel on
9) 24 hours for sealant to cure
10) mast back in place (rental crane)
11) launch

Start to finish it took us three days.
3 days of work, travel lifts, haulouts...re-rig...that's not a quick thing to do nor is it inexpensive. Yes, you have a direct process in place but...

Thanks for the info.
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Old 18-11-2015, 11:21   #45
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Re: Keel Nut Removal in the Water

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
You must drop the keel to replace J-bolts in lead...

You can sister in place...

A LARGE percentage of boats with lead keels are not encapsulated ...
Thanks. That makes sense. Ours, through-bolted, we replaced in place one by one (while hauled out)...tedious to get the old ones out, easy to get the new ones in place.
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